Tues Jan 31 Discussion Transcript


Topic: The State of the Universe and Cosmogony
Over the years there have been many hypothesis as to the state of the universe. Did it start as a big bang or a steady state? Is it describable be information and therefore computable, as in digital physics?
The study of this is described by the word “cosmology”. Cosmology, as defined by NASA, is “the scientific study of the large scale properties of the universe as a whole.” Cosmogony also comes into play, as it has to do with “any scientific theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the cosmos or universe, or about how reality came to be.” –Wikipedia
The Big Bang theory “postulates that 12 to 14 billion years ago, the portion of the universe we can see today was only a few millimetres across. It has since expanded from this hot dense state into the vast and much cooler cosmos we currently inhabit. We can see remnants of this hot dense matter as the now very cold cosmic microwave background radiation which still pervades the universe and is visible to microwave detectors as a uniform glow across the entire sky.” The problem with this, is how the original matter came to exist.
Wikipedia states that “digital physics is grounded in one or more of the following hypotheses; the hypothesis are listed in order of increasing strength. The universe, or reality, is:
-essentially informational (although not every informational ontology needs to be digital);
-essentially computable;
-can be described digitally;
-in essence digital;
-itself a computer;
-the output of a simulated reality exercise.”
The Steady State theory, although largely disproved by science, states that new matter must be continuously created (mostly as hydrogen) to keep the average density of matter equal over time. Or, in other words, the universe is infinite and continuous – it didn’t emerge, it was just always there.
“The Ekpyrotic model came out of work by Neil Turok and Paul Steinhardt and maintains that the universe did not start in a singularity, but came about from the collision of two branes. This collision avoids the primordial singularity and superluminal expansion while preserving nearly scale-free density fluctuations and other features of the observed universe.”
Wikipedia: “String theory posits that the electrons and quarks within an atom are not 0-dimensional objects, but rather 1-dimensional oscillating lines (“strings”). The earliest string model, the bosonic string, incorporated only bosons, although this view developed to the superstring theory, which posits that a connection (a “supersymmetry”) exists between bosons and fermions. String theories also require the existence of several extra, unobservable dimensions to the universe, in addition to the four known spacetime dimensions.
The theory has its origins in an effort to understand the strong force, the dual resonance model (1969). Subsequent to this, five different superstring theories were developed that incorporated fermions and possessed other properties necessary for a theory of everything. Since the mid-1990s, in particular due to insights from dualities shown to relate the five theories, an eleven-dimensional theory called M-theory is believed to encompass all of the previously-distinct superstring theories.”
“The Big Bounce is a theoretical scientific model of the formation of the known universe. It is implied by the cyclic model or oscillatory universe interpretation of the Big Bang where the first cosmological event was the result of the collapse of a previous universe.”
Some of these ideas work together, whereas others are complete opposites. The question I pose is where do you think the universe came from (if it came from anywhere at all)? Did it always exist? Will it end?
I open the floor.
[10:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I recently attended cosmology discussion
[10:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: How if we see the curvature of space now, and then extrapolate backwards, the universe had to be in a close proximity that allowed acceleration–the cosmic egg of big bang theory.
[10:31] Violet: I’m totally unqualified to comment on actual physical theories, but I think cosmogony will always basically amount to a mystery; there’s no totally satisfying answer, because even if something seems right, you’ll end up wondering, “…and before that?”
[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: But in order to maintain density ratios, so the cosmological constant would remain, well, constant, you have to have continuous creation, and that would make for a tipping point eventually and that would mean the universe would accelerate it’s expansion; and sure enough, it has, which confirms this hypothesis
[10:32] Chraeloos: I agree Violet, there’s always the “what happened first?” question.
[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, well, Stephen Hawking maintains as, since you’re talking about “before space-time,” hence “before Time,” it is a meaningless question
[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: “Before” only applies once there is time
[10:33] Chraeloos: Ah good point Rhia
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, but covered by Aquines centuries before
[10:33] Chraeloos: That’s interesting about the acceleration. I hadn’t heard that part of it before.
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: There is still a need for an explanation
[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, so, they now think they have a handle on the big bang, when it happened and what made it happen
[10:34] Chraeloos: Huh, interesting. So it’s basically a proven theory? As far as one can prove something like that?
[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: Of course, where the matter came from is still a mystery; and to talk of branes colliding doesn’t help–as where did the branes come from
[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: Confirm, or corroborated; would hesitate to say “proven.” lol
[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: It needs continuous creation of one hydrogen particle per a zillions kilometres over centuries to work.
[10:35] Chraeloos: Um, wow. lol not sure that would be easy to do
[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, no problem if you’re omnipotent and omniscient
[10:36] Chraeloos: True haha
[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: Or if it popped inn from another universe
[10:36] Elizabeth Spieler: I actually made a video of creation called the ATOM
[10:36] Chraeloos: Oh yeah?
[10:36] Chraeloos: haha I like that term Rhia, so relaxed. “It just popped in for tea.”
[10:36] Elizabeth Spieler: let me get the link and folks can watch it later, of course my opinion of it
[10:36] Chraeloos: Sure 🙂
[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, and once here, you just can’t get rid of it
[10:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Some atoms are like that, you know.
[10:37] Chraeloos: Well, there’s the vacuum too, they exist everywhere simultaneously
[10:37] Josiane Llewellyn: I’ve been trying to understand string theory, as that might tie things together lol
[10:37] Josiane Llewellyn: I do feel partial to it actually
[10:37] Chraeloos: lol english is so funny. “tie things together”
[10:37] Chraeloos: Why’s that Josiane?
[10:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, good luck Jos. Most string theorists don’t understand it
[10:38] Chraeloos: “The Little Book of String Theory” is a good place to start, if you ask me haha
[10:38] Elizabeth Spieler: I did take some ideas visually from the mayans
[10:38] Chraeloos: Thanks Eli 🙂
[10:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, the alternative is dark matter; to make the universe hold together, and to explain the big bang, and the rate of acceleration and the cosmological constant, there has to be a 3 to 1 ration of dark energy to known energy
[10:38] Elizabeth Spieler: : )
[10:38] Chraeloos: there’s more than that isn’t there?
[10:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: And what is dark energy? Energy we can’t see; which has an unknown source
[10:38] Elizabeth Spieler: remember the sabbath . . don’t forget that!
[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, more than what we observe
[10:39] Elizabeth Spieler: giggles
[10:39] Chraeloos: Right
[10:39] Chraeloos: lol
[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: 4 times as much as we can observe
[10:39] Chraeloos: I wrote a paper on dark matter last year actually
[10:39] Violet: I have to be heading out…take care, everyone 🙂
[10:39] Chraeloos: Oh take care Violet!
[10:39] Chraeloos: see you around 🙂
[10:39] Elizabeth Spieler: the omnipotent God only works 6 days = 6000 years then he takes a break!
[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: But otherwise, nothing makes sense; the curvature of space, the galaxies holding together, the push needed for the expansion of the universe, it’s sudden acceleration, etc.
[10:40] Elizabeth Spieler: the universe is likened to a woman’s womb
[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, creating a universe is hard work; you try it sometime
[10:40] Chraeloos: How so Eli?
[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, labor pains wipe you out, too
[10:40] Chraeloos: lol
[10:40] Elizabeth Spieler: were all a xerox of the original
[10:40] Chraeloos: Ah
[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: I prefer to think I’m scanned, personally
[10:40] Chraeloos: neat way of putting that
[10:41] Elizabeth Spieler: everything operates like a compass, huge clue
[10:41] Chraeloos: I still don’t see how we can say for sure one theory is more right than the next. It comes down to our limited understanding and language
[10:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, there’s observation corroborating some.
[10:42] Chraeloos: true
[10:42] Elizabeth Spieler: the problem is trying to reconcile inner and outer worlds, they don’t match
[10:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: The universe is seen to be expanding and accelerating, just like the theory of dark matter/cosmological constant predicts
[10:43] Elizabeth Spieler: like we apply the label rock to a rock, then our mind thinks it knows what it is, but no one really knows what a rock is or how it came to be
[10:43] Chraeloos: exactly
[10:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Cosmogony, on the other hand–only two theories on the table–that it’s a meaningless question or that the universe was created somehow
[10:43] Elizabeth Spieler: we ponder creation because were born, which is a creation
[10:44] Elizabeth Spieler: in a delivery room when your born, no one came through a door
[10:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Or in other words, “Shut up!” or nihilo ex nihilo fit, so there is a God
[10:44] Elizabeth Spieler: your actually already all knowing, it’s your neurons that don’t seek to understand
[10:44] Elizabeth Spieler: oops do seek to understand
[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: this is due to the law of reflection
[10:45] Chraeloos: law of reflection?
[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: much like a lake saying why are you reflecting on me?
[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: get your image off me!
[10:45] Chraeloos: ah
[10:45] Josiane Llewellyn: well, there is the theory too about the multiverse
[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: but of course no lake says that lol
[10:45] Josiane Llewellyn: many universes
[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: but humans do
[10:45] Chraeloos: Well, that we know of Eli haha
[10:45] Rhiannon of the Birds: yah, I was using ‘universe’ in the original sense; but multiverse would be the modern phrase. Thanks, Jos
[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: I meant “the whole shebang”
[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: Some things imply a multiverse
[10:46] Chraeloos: what’s the difference?
[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: Continuous creation, if it isn’t to violate the law of conservation implies some place else
[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, the universe is our space-time continuum
[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: The multiverse allows for parallel worlds, and so forth
[10:47] Chraeloos: ah ok
[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Alternative time tracks
[10:47] Chraeloos: but how does that work into continuous creation?
[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, where do the hydrogen atoms come from?
[10:47] Chraeloos: right
[10:47] Chraeloos: Oh ok
[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: If we believe in the first law of thermodynamics, their “creation” means a leakage from outside the system
[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: The system being the universe
[10:47] Chraeloos: I get it haha sorry slow this morning
[10:48] Josiane Llewellyn: Do you think the multiverse could include brane theory?
[10:48] Chraeloos: Ok, but you still get the question of how did it get to that universe
[10:48] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, you’re but a shadow of your former self, Chrae; I’ve noticed that the last two times I’ve seen you
[10:48] Rhiannon of the Birds: Jos, other way around, brane theory implies the multiverse
[10:49] Chraeloos: hahaha Rhia, I am protesting censorship!
[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: And string theory says that gravity is really symmetrical with EM, so it leaches into other universes
[10:49] Josiane Llewellyn: oh, I wondered 🙂
[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: So one thing the Hadron Collider is being used for is to see if they can see gravitons leaching into other universes–apparently just vanishing
[10:49] Chraeloos: Indeed. We don’t all want to look like this!
[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: All well and good, but no one has ever seen a graviton
[10:50] Chraeloos: I was going to say haha
[10:50] Chraeloos: They have seen things disappear though, haven’t they?
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: And maybe the simplest explanation for gravity being 1/10th the strength of EM is that it, indeed, is one tenth the strength of EM and the difference is made up by dark energy–which seems implied by everything else we know about astrophysics, anyway
[10:51] Josiane Llewellyn: so gravitons are not proven to exist?
[10:51] lloubras Eyre: interesting but must leave, bye all!**)*
[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: No, they are simply the best explanation of gravity
[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: bye, illoubras!
[10:51] Chraeloos: THanks for coming Iloubras
[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: But if we believe that space is warped by mass, then we really don’t need them to explain gravity
[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: gravity =space warps or “gravity wells.”
[10:52] Chraeloos: That makes sense, then. I see why this theory prevails haha
[10:52] Chraeloos: everything else relies on belief and trust in that belief
[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah.
[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: “Turtles all the way down.”
[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol
[10:52] Chraeloos: What is that from?
[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bertrand Russell
[10:52] Chraeloos: Ah ok
[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: One of his first acts as a philosopher was to give a lecture
[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: He explained the state of astrophysics at the time.
[10:53] Chraeloos: Cool, I didn’t know that.
[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: A little old lady came up to him and said, “All well and good, young man, but the Earth rests on a turtle, you know. And I know what you’re going to say. But it’s turtles all the way down.”
[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol
[10:53] Chraeloos: lol!
[10:53] Elizabeth Spieler: giggles
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: He was still chuckling over it 70 years later when he wrote his autobiography
[10:54] Chraeloos: I believe it haha
[10:54] Chraeloos: So, how certain do you think we can be about this?
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not very, but enough, I suppose
[10:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: We have some evidence, it makes everything hook together and it motivates further exploration and that’s enough
[10:55] Josiane Llewellyn: I still don’t see how string theory fits with big bang and space curvature though.
[10:55] Chraeloos: I’m very skeptical about any theory that claims to be correct. I’m always stuck on the fact of langauge and understanding limiting the way we see the truth.
[10:55] Josiane Llewellyn: but string theory and the multiverse should work okay together.
[10:55] Chraeloos: er, “truth”
[10:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, it may not; that’s why most atrophysicists reject string theory
[10:56] Josiane Llewellyn: oh! didn’t realize that
[10:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: I went to a lecture here in SL on dark energy and asked the question–well, doesn’t string theory provide an alternative to dark matter
[10:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: He said, “Oh, don’t get me started on string theory…” lol
[10:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, I’m a Popperian
[10:57] Chraeloos: lol Rhia, always asking the tough questions. It’s a good way to be!
[10:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: The dark energy model is corroborated–it explains the curvature of space and what must be the case for the expansion and predicted the acceleration
[10:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: But that doesn’t make it true, just not falsified yet
[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: ty, Chrae!
[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: I mean dark energy is a lot like phlogiston–the missing element that makes for fire
[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: It didn’t exist; we discovered oxygen was the missing element
[10:59] Chraeloos: ah ok
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: But well, something is doing it and it is mysteries and it is a form of enfergy, so it’s not quite like that, it’s true there must be such an energy source and we have *no idea* what it is
[10:59] Chraeloos: rhia, is there any topic you don’t know at least something about?
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: (God, god, god, god…)
[10:59] Josiane Llewellyn: lol
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, I’m not to good on, um, no…
[10:59] Chraeloos: lol that’s a whole different discussion. Come to the sunday lectures to get into that lol
[11:00] Chraeloos: XD
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I can look at a car engine and get totally confused. There, there’s one
[11:00] Josiane Llewellyn: we have that in common then
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: “Is that the battery?” “No, ma’am, that’s where the coolent is.”
[11:00] Chraeloos: haha me too, but my partner is trying to teach me. it’s not as confusing as you’d think!
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol Not quite that bad
[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: when adam and eve sewed fig leaves it’s because they didn’t have SKIN
[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: so they appeared much like a car engine
[11:01] Josiane Llewellyn: then they should have come to SL, lots of skins here
[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: so our skin covers the real workings of us
[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, good, liz. Since I have skin, I don’t need fig leaves
[11:01] Chraeloos: Alright everyone thats the hour! If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Thanks for coming!
[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: what I mean is remove your skin and you would openly see all your organs etc
[11:02] Chraeloos: Unfortunately I have to take off, but feel free to stick around and enjoy yourselves.
[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: blood flow heart beating
[11:02] Josiane Llewellyn: I need to go too
[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: this is why they felt shame
[11:02] Josiane Llewellyn: thanks everyone
[11:02] Josiane Llewellyn: good discussion
[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: thank you
[11:02] Chraeloos: Great discussion! See you around 🙂
[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, time for me to go too
[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: ty Chrae!
[11:02] Chraeloos: Take care
[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: Great job as usual
[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: I need to build myself have a great day!

Jan 31 Intro notes


Topic: The State of the Universe and Cosmogony
Over the years there have been many hypothesis as to the state of the universe. Did it start as a big bang or a steady state? Is it describable be information and therefore computable, as in digital physics?
The study of this is described by the word “cosmology”. Cosmology, as defined by NASA, is “the scientific study of the large scale properties of the universe as a whole.” Cosmogony also comes into play, as it has to do with “any scientific theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the cosmos or universe, or about how reality came to be.” –Wikipedia
The Big Bang theory “postulates that 12 to 14 billion years ago, the portion of the universe we can see today was only a few millimetres across. It has since expanded from this hot dense state into the vast and much cooler cosmos we currently inhabit. We can see remnants of this hot dense matter as the now very cold cosmic microwave background radiation which still pervades the universe and is visible to microwave detectors as a uniform glow across the entire sky.” The problem with this, is how the original matter came to exist.
Wikipedia states that “digital physics is grounded in one or more of the following hypotheses; the hypothesis are listed in order of increasing strength. The universe, or reality, is:
-essentially informational (although not every informational ontology needs to be digital);
-essentially computable;
-can be described digitally;
-in essence digital;
-itself a computer;
-the output of a simulated reality exercise.”
The Steady State theory, although largely disproved by science, states that new matter must be continuously created (mostly as hydrogen) to keep the average density of matter equal over time. Or, in other words, the universe is infinite and continuous – it didn’t emerge, it was just always there.
“The Ekpyrotic model came out of work by Neil Turok and Paul Steinhardt and maintains that the universe did not start in a singularity, but came about from the collision of two branes. This collision avoids the primordial singularity and superluminal expansion while preserving nearly scale-free density fluctuations and other features of the observed universe.”
Wikipedia: “String theory posits that the electrons and quarks within an atom are not 0-dimensional objects, but rather 1-dimensional oscillating lines (“strings”). The earliest string model, the bosonic string, incorporated only bosons, although this view developed to the superstring theory, which posits that a connection (a “supersymmetry”) exists between bosons and fermions. String theories also require the existence of several extra, unobservable dimensions to the universe, in addition to the four known spacetime dimensions.
The theory has its origins in an effort to understand the strong force, the dual resonance model (1969). Subsequent to this, five different superstring theories were developed that incorporated fermions and possessed other properties necessary for a theory of everything. Since the mid-1990s, in particular due to insights from dualities shown to relate the five theories, an eleven-dimensional theory called M-theory is believed to encompass all of the previously-distinct superstring theories.”
“The Big Bounce is a theoretical scientific model of the formation of the known universe. It is implied by the cyclic model or oscillatory universe interpretation of the Big Bang where the first cosmological event was the result of the collapse of a previous universe.”
Some of these ideas work together, whereas others are complete opposites. The question I pose is where do you think the universe came from (if it came from anywhere at all)? Did it always exist? Will it end?
I open the floor.