Dualism vs. Nondualism Intro Notes


Dualism Photo

Check out the intro notes from this afternoon’s philosophy discussion. If you missed it, feel free to leave a comment here!


Welcome to the Citta Bhavana Ashram everyone! Thank you for joining us today. I’ll give a brief introduction before opening the floor for discussion. Please hold all questions and comments until after the intro.

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It is most often thought that dualism is a Western idea and non-dualism is an Eastern idea. But, even within traditions we find opposing ideas. Let’s explore a bit what dualism and non-dualism are.

These are ideas put forth in the philosophy of mind, as well as religion. Very generally, there are two fundamental categories of things. Typically these are the difference between mind and body, and sometimes even mind and brain. In other words, the dualist/nondualist debate is arguing whether or not mind is separate from matter.

Now, since we don’t have an agreed upon definition of mind, I’d like us to explore it from the point of view of whatever it means to you – whether it is consciousness, spirit, soul, awareness, divine, whatever. I don’t want us to get caught up in this, since it could mean any of these things or more, and I feel that it’s meaning is a bit of a personal matter. I’d rather we focus on the difference between this and the material world.

On a personal level, body can be considered to be the physical experience, including, sight, smell, taste, hearing, and touch. Mind can be considered to be immaterial experience: thoughts, patters, self, ego, memory, awareness. If you think of it like a venn diagram, what comes in the middle?

It has been debated, too, that body has memory – some may say “muscle memory” but others also speak about fascia as holding physical memory. Hence why sense objects can be a trigger for memories. However, this is not of as much importance in our discussion today.

In Indian philosophy, there are two concepts: purusha (consciousness, spirit) and prakriti (matter, nature). These are considered in nondualist philosophy to be AND – as in, they are inseparable and of the same importance; whereas in dualist philosophy it is purusha versus prakriti – as in, one always struggling for importance. In some dualist traditions they may consider that either purusha or prakriti is more important (depending on the tradition), though most often they say purusha (conscoiusness, spirit) is more important, and in fact more true reality than the material world.

We find this same idea all over religion, spirituality, and philosophy. Many dualists do consider that the material world is real – we can all experience it more or less the same. What is in debate is the non-material world, or mind.

Descartes, in his “Meditations,” argues for the point of view of mind and God as being one and the same. This is echoed in Eastern traditions through the concept of prana and qi (energy or life force), and even Atman and Brahman (individual consciousness and universal consciousness) – in other words, the part of us that is also in everything else. The most true essence of existence.

We know that all material things are subject to change. All things change over time, and this is unavoidable. So many schools of thought would argue that if it changes, it is not real. So that which is unchanging, this purusha (consciousness, divine, etc), is the most true, or the most real.

In nondualism, it is recognized that all things are ultimately the same. That nothing is unique, and even our consciousness is not our own. By that, it is meant that we are all drops of the same ocean – that we are all small parts of one big whole. That we are not existing without everything else, and everything else is not existing without us.

So, do you think that we have something in us, something perhaps divine or extensive in nature, that exists separate from the material world, or do we have an innate connection to that which surrounds us and can be experienced?

Are we unique individuals, or are we really part of one big whole?

Can our minds exist without our bodies?

Does whatever makes up the “I” exist in our minds, our bodies, or neither?

I open the floor. What do you think?

Eastern Perspectives on Compassion


Isis Pleiades has honored me with inviting me to host at the official launch of Spirit Park! So, at 10am SLT on Saturday Sep 21 I will be hosting a meditation followed by some discussion, in humble consideration of the International Weekend of Peace. Please join us to share in an exploration of the energy within ourselves and how we can transform it into compassion for all living beings.

I’m so thrilled to be back in SL and connecting with you all!

The entire weekend is full of events at this same location. The lineup is as follow:

Saturday Sept 21

6:45 am – Opening address form Isis Pleides
7 am – Rtada hosts Vedic chanting
8 am – Andre Farstrider hosts Starseed Connections
9 am – Kana Koray hosts New Hero Journey
10 am – Chraeloos hosts Perspectives on Chinese Medicine
11 am – Lyle and Sedona host Reincarnation and Immortality of the Soul
12 Noon – Elizabeth hosts The Oz Experience
1 pm to 8 pm – Live Music!
8 pm – Rtada hosts Vedic Chanting

Sunday Sept 22

7 am – Rtada hosts Vedic Chanting
8 am – Divali hosts I Ching Revelations
9 am – Andre Farstrider hosts Pleiadian Discussions
10:30 am – Regis Roubodoo hosts Inner Harmony
12 pm – The Companions Tea Ceremony/Tour
1-9 pm – Live Music
9 pm – Rtada hosts Vedic Chanting

I do hope to see you there! Namaste _/\_

**

International Day of Peace Guided Meditation and Presentation
at Spirit Gate, 10-11am SLT Saturday Sept 21 2013

Welcome everyone to Spirit Park at Nirvana Island. Thank you all for coming to share and take part in our celebration of peace, love and harmony. Thank you to Isis who invited me to host this discussion today. I’m so happy to be here!

On this day of International Peace I present the following practices to you so that we may see that each and every one of us is connected. If one of us suffers, all of us suffer. If we show compassion to all living beings as much as we can, if we feel that we are even slightly responsible for the well-being of others, and that our actions affect everyone else, we would live in a much more peaceful world. Only through love can we achieve world peace. And by love I don’t mean the type of love where you can’t stand to be apart or are reliant on the other person for your happiness, but the kind of love that is unconditional and accepting regardless of the situation. If we can all open our minds and bodies to the feeling of pure love and pure energy and send that love out to all who need it, remembering to nurture ourselves at the same time, we can achieve true happiness and true peace.

In Buddhist practice, we commit to three things:
1. Not causing harm
2. Taking care of one another, and
3. Embracing the world just as it is

Pema Chodron says, “May we all learn that pain is not the end of the journey, and neither is delight. We can hold them both – indeed hold it all – at the same time…”

With this in mind, I would like to introduce you to a practice called Tonglen. The idea is to breathe in pain, and breathe out relief. For this short meditation I will go into voice. I will also post the instructions here for those who do not have access to voice.

If you could get comfortable, whether sitting, standing, or laying. Regardless of what position you are in please make sure that your spine is aligned, so if you were sitting your tailbone would be drawn towards the front slightly, straightening your lower back, and your shoulders would be dropped out of your ears and resting in a line above your hips. Pull your chin in slightly, bowing it to your chest to make the back of your neck straight. Place your hands where they fall comfortably.

Now, take a deep breath, and close your eyes. Let the sounds of the world surround you; listen to the birds, the air, the children playing outside. Notice your breathing getting calmer, deeper, and steadier. On your next breath in, try to feel it fill up your entire abdomen. Hold it for a moment. Let it out. Repeat… Take a deep breath in. Feel it fill up your entire abdomen. Hold it for a moment. Let it out. Try to see if you can make your in breath the same length as your out breath.

Now, following this in and out pattern, bring your attention to how you feel. If there is any sadness, anger, pain, or other strong feeling, don’t judge it. Instead of labelling it, just notice it. What does it feel like? Where do you feel it manifesting? Play with it a bit. Does the feeling move? …

Now, bring your mind to something that makes you very happy: a loved one, the beautiful Harvest Moon, the sound of the ocean. Whatever it may be, let the feeling of joy and love fill you up. Let it wash over the fear or pain. …

Let us together breathe in the fear and pain and sadness that we feel. When we breathe out, send the joy and love out to the world. At first, send it to someone close to you. Then try sending it to an acquaintance. Imagine this joy and love going out to all the people you know. Then imagine it going out to everyone sitting in this room. If you can, slowly spread it out every living creature. …

With every in breath we can pull in all the pain and sadness that we feel and with every out breath we can turn it into productive, compassionate energy. I’ll leave you in silence to practice this for a few minutes. …

Slowly bring your attention back to your body. When you’re ready, deepen your breath, wiggle your fingers and toes. If you’d I suggest drinking some water to help ground you.

~~

Norman Fischer talks about us all “swimming in an ocean of compassion.” He goes on to say that everything is compassion. If we can see that everything exists in this ocean of compassion, we can be free of suffering. The practice we just did is a good way to open ourselves to this ocean of compassion.

Tantric yoga is a path of union – yoking – between the one and the many. It is the path to liberation of the “self” – the entity that the ego insists is individual, but is merely a piece of the macrocosmic world. Where would we be without each other?

Tantra worships the divine dance of Shiva and Shakti, which we can safely relate to yin and yang in Chinese medicine. The breakdown works a bit differently, though, with Parama-shiva as the umbrella of ultimate reality. This is characterized by sac-cit-ananda, or Being (sat), Consciousness (cit), and Bliss (ananda).

David Bohm described reality as movement that occurs as “a series of interpenetrating and intermingling elements in different degrees of enfoldment all present together.” This accurately describes the tantric world-view, which only adds that this dynamic Being is conscious.

Tantric practitioners believe that all of us have this Consciousness within us. They believe it is located within the heart, the heart meaning here: “that which I truly am.” “[The heart] is not the body or the mind,” says Georg Feuerstein, “but pure Being-Consciousness-Bliss.” Remember here, that these terms don’t mean what they mean in ordinary western context, as in the ultimate being there is no differentiation between subject and object.

Shiva, is the aspect of the ultimate reality that is consciousness. It is pure subject rather than object; the notion of “I,” without a sense of “I am.” You may be familiar with the mantra for this aspect, located in the heart, “aham.” This sound means “I.” Shiva is often interpreted as the masculine aspect.

Shakti, is the second aspect of the ultimate Reality. It is creativity, energy. Shakti coexists with Shiva to create the universe. Shakti is considered to be the Bliss aspect of the ultimate Reality. Shakti is often interpreted as the feminine aspect.

We can view the union of Shiva and Shakti much like we do yin and yang: as a seemless continuity of Consciousness and Power within one and the same Reality. One cannot exist without the other, one exists within the other, and one manifests the other. This union is often viewed in the west as a sexual union between a couple, but we must keep in mind that this union is transcendental and therefore also asexual.

Shakti plays the active role, whereas Shiva plays the passive role. He manifests the absolute stillness of consciousness, and she expresses the unlimited potency of Power or Energy. “Together they symbolize the play of life and death, creation and annihilation, emptiness and form, dynamism and stasis. This interplay is found on all levels of cosmic existence because … it preexists the ultimate Reality itself.”

One of the first concepts that Eastern practitioners focus on is nonattachment. The Kula-Arnava-Tantra, an ancient Tantric text, reads: “nonattachment (nihsangha) alone is the means if liberation. All defects spring from attachment. Therefore one becomes happy by abandoning attachment and relying on Reality.”

Reality is seen as a continuous process in which everything is constantly in flux. This is mirrored in modern physics: “[current models show] that the properties of a particle can only be understood in terms of its activity – of its interaction with the surrounding environment – and that the particle, therefore, cannot be seen as an isolated entity, but has to be understood as an integrated part of the whole. … The fact that the mass of a particle is equivalent to a certain amount of energy means that the particle can no longer be seen as a static object, but has to be conceived as a dynamic pattern, a process involving the energy which manifests itself as the particle’s mass.”

Here we can see that everything, on both macro- and micro-cosmic levels, is continuously flowing and changing. By teaching nonattachment we learn that change is inevitable, and that only by letting go of our preconceptions and expectations will Reality reveal itself and all the Bliss that it contains.

Georg Feuerstein, in his book, “Tantra: The Path of Ecstasy” gives a typical path of the tantric practitioner, which you may be familiar with if you know of Patanjali:

1. Yama – moral restraint consisting of non-harming, truthfulness, chastity, and greedlessness, which are said to be valid on all levels, at all times, and everywhere.

2. Niyama – self-restraint through purity, contentment, austerity, study, and devotion to The Lord.

3. Asana – posture, which makes the practitioner immune against the onslaught from the pairs of opposites (dvandva), such as heat and cold or dry and moist.

4. Pranayama – lit. “Extension of the life energy” by means of breath control.

5. Pratyahara – sensory inhibition

6. Dharana – concentration, or fixing ones attention upon a selected object, be it a mantra or the graphic representation of a deity

7. Dhyana – meditation, which is a deepening of concentration marked by a progressive unification of consciousness

8. Samadhi – lit. “Putting together,” or ecstasy, which consists in ones complete merging with the object of meditation

The Sharada-Tilaka-Tantra adds five practices to the moral restraint category: compassion, rectitude, patience, stability, and moderate eating, and in place of greedlessness, cleanliness. Through all of these practices, the sages believe one can achieve self-transformation. In my own experience, through these practices and many more, one can achieve an understanding of our connectedness to each other. Through these practices we can move beyond our limited sense of the world – how we want it to be versus how it is – and find our true happiness. Once it’s been found, once Bliss or enlightenment has been reached, one can live in the ocean of compassion with all other beings, free of violence and hatred, free of shame or greed. Through compassion for others you will grow to love yourself, and through loving yourself you will be able to feel more compassion for others.

Just remember, the people that it is hardest to feel compassion for are the ones who likely need it the most. If someone is acting really rotten, just remind yourself that you don’t know what they are going through in life. Maybe your smile or small reassurance or understanding would turn their whole day around. Just knowing that someone cares, even a stranger, can be a very powerful thing.

You may hear me use the term Namaste quite often. This is an ancient term which means: my soul honours your soul. I honour the place in you where the entire universe resides. I horn the light, love, truth, beauty & peace within you, because it is also within me. In sharing these things we are united, we are the same, we are one.

I will leave you with one final quote:
“The opposite if consumption isn’t thrift, it’s generosity. ” – Raj Patel

Thank you for your time today! May all of you soak in the ocean of compassion, whatever path may lead you there! Much love and peace to you all. Namaste! _/|\_

The Psychology and Physiology of The Instant


I’m reading Susan Sontag’s journals, and I couldn’t help but use this quote as our discussion topic tonight. Join us at the Thinktank! 7pmSLT

Psychology and Physiology of ‘the instant’

Everything can change in an instant – the universe may have been created in less than an instant. Time influences everything. Without time, there would be no change. There would be no progress, no aging, no understanding. But, some would argue that there is no time without the observation of the mind and space.
As individuals, we experience time subjectively. Everyone calculates time differently.
I had a friend once who said “time is throwable,” and another who says, “time is squishy.” What do they mean by that? Can you physically pick up time and throw or squish it? No, of course not. Time is not apprehended by any senses. We notice time because of change. Change of our thoughts, our environment, etc. Music is all based on time. But, time is malleable. If you’re really excited for something, time will tick slower than you’ve ever felt it go before. We can remember things that have happened in the past, and some of us claim to “see” things that will happen in the future. A lot of our personality is based on our experiences, which would not be possible without time.
This brings us to the different experiences of time within ourselves. Our right hemisphere sees only “this instant.” It deals only with feelings, senses, emotions. It is the experiential focal point of the brain. On the other side, the left hemisphere, we can remember our past and think of the future. The left side is all about information and storage. We can see here how information comes in the right brain through our immediate experiences and gets translated into the left brain as a narrative – a story of our lives and experiences. The right brain is unbiased, whereas the left brain holds judgements, assumptions and expectations based on our past experiences. So, we can see that time has a large effect on who we are right now. This affect of the left brain is called a “time paradox”, as it influences every decision you make, but that you are totally unaware of. The left brain turns time into fiction.
How does all this relate to our understanding of the instant? The right brain lives in the instant. The right brain is what we try to tap into during meditation. It is what allows us to have completely innocent, unbiased experiences. I want you all to think of a very important part of your lives – something that has happened that was a kind of turning point. What if you could take a snapshot of a single instant in that experience? What would you find there? Would you understand what was going on? What emotions would you feel? Would you be able to understand the event better? Or would it be exactly the opposite, where it would make no sense and have absolutely no relevance to the outcome of the event? If you could go back and change something in that particular instant, what would you change?
Why is this experience of the right brain important – why do meditators try to reach it? To our minds time is linear, and every instant influences the next. If we could directly perceive time, what would the world look like? What would it smell like? Feel like? Taste like?
But, we all know that time isn’t a directly experienceable subject. So, our minds must construct it. It must be dependable on our observation of it. Does time exist independently of ourselves? Is time personal and subjective? Relative?
Time is the fourth dimension. The first three are dimensions of space. Is time reliant on space, and space reliant on time?
How important is an instant in time? What can you experience in just one instant? Does time even fit into an instant, or does an experience of time have to be a larger chunk of it? If so, how large. And if an instant isn’t important, how important is time at all?
I open the floor.

Shay Ellison’s Stardust Discussion Transcript July 29 2012


Below is a copy of the transcript from Shay Ellison’s discussion last Sunday at Tricipian Center. She did such a great job and so many great things were said I couldn’t help but ask her to post this here. Great job everyone! And especially a great job to Shay!

[2012/07/29 12:10] Shay Ellison: you all have seen a diagram of our solar system before.
[2012/07/29 12:10] MusE Starsmith: Hi Sonitus!
[2012/07/29 12:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, he’s just breathing hard
[2012/07/29 12:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, I *did* not just say that
[2012/07/29 12:10] MusE Starsmith: Rhia!!!!
[2012/07/29 12:11] Sonitus Randt: hi
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: 8 or 9 planets, depending on whether you still heart pluto as one of our circle 😉
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: I want you to picture it in your mind
[2012/07/29 12:11] Seren (serendipity.seraph): or Eris
[2012/07/29 12:11] Tricipian Serendipity: OK LETS all show our host some politness and refreain from chatting after the lecture °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: now, scale back 10 times
[2012/07/29 12:11] Tricipian Serendipity: we have trained hosts to take care of and make strays feel welcome °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: then put a big smoky smudge in that space. our solar system will be sitting in a small corner of that.
[2012/07/29 12:12] Shay Ellison: it’s a big gas nebula, a cloud of hydrogen, where all stars begin from in some way.
[2012/07/29 12:12] Shay Ellison: as gravity compresses that hydrogen together, it gets so hot that nuclear atom smashing happens. that’s the jump start of all stars.
[2012/07/29 12:13] Shay Ellison: and this star? it’s bleepin huge! several times greater than our sun, probably burning with a hotter color.
[2012/07/29 12:13] Shay Ellison: it also did not last as long as our sun is expected to. another 4 billion years by astronomers observations of other parts of the galaxy
[2012/07/29 12:13] Shay Ellison: this freakin huge star will only last a fraction of that time, and when it’s life is up, it won’t just dissapate with the solar wind. it will explode. violently.
[2012/07/29 12:14] Tuppence Aubin: Hi Zymony
[2012/07/29 12:14] Shay Ellison: the amount of energy released is so intense, it will outshine an entire galaxy! a supernova explosion.
[2012/07/29 12:14] Shay Ellison: but moments before that event, the star has run out of hydrogen to burn and smash together into helium, which is how stars keep burning for many many years
[2012/07/29 12:15] Shay Ellison: once that hydrogen is gone, it has to keep burning SOMEthing, so it starts to canibalize the helium, creating lithium an other elements from that.
[2012/07/29 12:15] Shay Ellison: this is what populates our periodic table, stars near death that create heavier and larger atoms, right up until it starts making iron.
[2012/07/29 12:16] Shay Ellison: ever wondered what it takes to destroy a star? it’s in your frying pan. yes, ordinary iron 😉
[2012/07/29 12:16] Shay Ellison: Iron is designed to take in more energy than it can give out. as the iron robs the star of that energy needed to keep burning, it almost implodes on itself, then shatters outward, sending all those heavier elements out into the cosmos
[2012/07/29 12:17] Shay Ellison: in that moment of the supernova explosion, the amount of energy is enough to fuse the iron together with other elements, making our heavier ones like gold and platinum
[2012/07/29 12:17] Shay Ellison: that is why those elements are so rare 😉
[2012/07/29 12:17] Shay Ellison: and that could be the end of it, but not all hydrogen in that original star has been removed!
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: enough forms to create a new, albeit smaller star
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: but we don’t have just hydrogen anymore, the elements made from that original star are also around
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: eventually they orbit the star’s immense gravity, small pebbles combining, then boulders
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: until eventually you have planets that will cool.
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: that is how the inner planets from mercury to mars were born.
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: including earth
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: still with me everyone?
[2012/07/29 12:19] Tricipian Serendipity: yes ; doing great! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:19] Arabella Eyre (nitewater): Very clear
[2012/07/29 12:19] MusE Starsmith: so far!
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: creation of a star, destruction, then birth of a new star
[2012/07/29 12:19] Lulu Lacrima sits alertly
[2012/07/29 12:19] Bryce Galbraith: yep, still here 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: there are many ancient religions that revere our sun, it provides so much for us, helps sustain our existence
[2012/07/29 12:20] Shay Ellison: I won’t say how long the idea of a god for everything was, but back then, earth WAS everything we knew, as telescopes weren’t invented yet.
[2012/07/29 12:20] Shay Ellison: but we are, stardust.
[2012/07/29 12:20] RevRob Beerbaum: i feel it no coincidence of poetry that attraction is the main fuel of our sustenance
[2012/07/29 12:20] Shay Ellison: we are the successors to that giant gas cloud that gave birth to our entire solar system
[2012/07/29 12:21] Lulu Lacrima whispers re-hi Rhi
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: a gas cloud that may be 10 times, 50 times greater than our solar system. the cosmic distances are immense!
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: yet at the same time, we share a connection with the other planets, the asteroids, the moons, all being birthed from the same star!
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: in some ways, this connection is even more personal than our theistic religions
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: we are, stardust.
[2012/07/29 12:22] Shay Ellison: so, knowing what you do now, I”m sure each of you may find some takeaway from it. spiritual or secular
[2012/07/29 12:22] Shay Ellison: I now open the floor for you to share your thoughts with everyone.
[2012/07/29 12:22] Dom Lunasea nicely expressed
[2012/07/29 12:22] Chraeloos: Rev, I agree that its very poetic
[2012/07/29 12:23] Chraeloos: Well done Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:23] Tricipian Serendipity: first i wqant to say ty for “christening” this venue and great intro! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:23] MusE Starsmith: Shay, that was wonderfully expressed!
[2012/07/29 12:23] Shay Ellison: focusing on a connection that links us to the cosmos, which may even trancend our theistic religions 😉
[2012/07/29 12:23] RevRob Beerbaum: yes, thank you Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:23] Lulu Lacrima: I think Cosmos is appropriate, because you reminded me of Carl Sagan, who would agree that we are all made of “starstuff”
[2012/07/29 12:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Could you repeat it, Shay? I crashed. lol
[2012/07/29 12:23] Tricipian Serendipity: this is a very inclusive approach to understanding our being
[2012/07/29 12:23] Tuppence Aubin: yes
[2012/07/29 12:23] Shay Ellison: lol, everyone gets one Rhia 😉
[2012/07/29 12:24] Shay Ellison: but I’ll past the chat log for you 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks.
[2012/07/29 12:24] Dom Lunasea: Philip Stewert’s Chemical Galaxy ; a re-imaging of the periodic table : http://www.chemicalgalaxy.co.uk/
[2012/07/29 12:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The phrase “We are starstuff” was Sagan’s
[2012/07/29 12:24] RevRob Beerbaum: i think the idea of the causality chain eg. “we are all stardust” might miss something though. the same thing that can become stars, is the same thing that is us
[2012/07/29 12:24] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, I can’t help but be reminded of Cosmos too…
[2012/07/29 12:24] Tricipian Serendipity: for many of the reasons you said too
[2012/07/29 12:24] Lulu Lacrima: yes, Rhia, that’s why I chose to use quotation marks
[2012/07/29 12:25] Chraeloos nods at Bryce
[2012/07/29 12:25] RevRob Beerbaum: Pale Blue Dot – a fav
[2012/07/29 12:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, we are made of the same thing as stars; but there’s a causal chain–I think, spiritually, though, there is an idea of oneness with the universe that has to be plugged in
[2012/07/29 12:25] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, do you speak perhaps of The Force?
[2012/07/29 12:25] MusE Starsmith: I have learned I resemble a fry pan. Seriously, though, the connections here are astounding to contemplate
[2012/07/29 12:25] Tricipian Serendipity: right rhi; and tha makes everthing around us a point for attachement
[2012/07/29 12:26] Shay Ellison: I find, that our connection to the stars allows us to hold similar beliefs, that while they all could differ greatly, we would still share a belief of this connection with the rest of the universe.
[2012/07/29 12:26] Chraeloos: Thanks Dom, that was interesting!
[2012/07/29 12:26] Sonitus Randt: muse lol
[2012/07/29 12:26] Chraeloos: Muse, lol!
[2012/07/29 12:26] Shay Ellison: and there’s something more inclusive about that as well
[2012/07/29 12:26] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely! I mainly meant that our Sun wasn’t “first”, we all conglomerated and played our roles to end up here, at the same “time”
[2012/07/29 12:26] MusE Starsmith: I like “sense of oneness” Rhia
[2012/07/29 12:27] Tuppence Aubin: Yes so did I
[2012/07/29 12:27] Chraeloos: Agreed Muse, Rhi that was a good one
[2012/07/29 12:27] Tricipian Serendipity: very good point rev; we dont realize we are second players to this part of the galaxy
[2012/07/29 12:27] Chraeloos: Paul, “second players”?
[2012/07/29 12:27] MusE Starsmith: in age, you mean, Rev; Paul?
[2012/07/29 12:27] Shay Ellison: why first or second? why not, a continuation? 😉
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tricipian Serendipity: as shay pointed out in her intro; the sun was born too
[2012/07/29 12:28] MusE Starsmith: an expansion, perhaps
[2012/07/29 12:28] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, the Force? Well, I do think that there is an energy field that surrounds all life and allows us to do what some would call “extrasensory” things.
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tricipian Serendipity: before we came along there was a death for our solar systems birth
[2012/07/29 12:28] Shay Ellison: wish I could do telekenisis 😀
[2012/07/29 12:28] RevRob Beerbaum: yes, Tricipian! we seem to be in a way, siblings
[2012/07/29 12:28] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, musE, Chrae, Tri
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tuppence Aubin: yes
[2012/07/29 12:28] Chraeloos: I’m trying to think what this connection means to me. I guess its both spiritual and seculuar – scientific as we are made of it, but spiritual because it kind of makes us feel like a community, I think.
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tricipian Serendipity: continuation it might be; but its a process in evolution too
[2012/07/29 12:29] Lulu Lacrima: “There is a thing confusedly formed/Born before Heaven and Earth/Silent and void/It stands alone and does not change/Goes round and does not weary./It is capable of being the mother of the world./I know not its name/So I style it “The Way”/I give it the makeshift name of “the Great”/Being great, it is further described as receding/Receding, it is described as far away/Being far away, it is described as turning back
[2012/07/29 12:29] MusE Starsmith: Process, right. I always like that word.
[2012/07/29 12:29] RevRob Beerbaum: i like that, Chraeloos: community
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Reminds me of Taoism “vital energy” – we are all made of the same stuff
[2012/07/29 12:29] Arabella Eyre (nitewater) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:29] MusE Starsmith: Lulu! wow
[2012/07/29 12:29] Lulu Lacrima: “Lao-tse” as quoted in Cosmos (C. Sagan)
[2012/07/29 12:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Chrae, right, I think the Taoists were onto something
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Rev, thanks, me too
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Lulu, mhm
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Rhi, definitely
[2012/07/29 12:30] Shay Ellison: and if you want to take an earth day take on it, we are all recycled stuff too
[2012/07/29 12:30] Tricipian Serendipity: this understanding tho really drives that we are all made of the same stuff home °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: So, its both spiritual and secular for me
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: Shay, lol thats great!
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: Paul, sure does
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: its kind of neat to think about
[2012/07/29 12:30] Shay Ellison: the laws of physics knows how to recycle better than we do! heehee
[2012/07/29 12:30] Dom Lunasea: not just the same stuff – but the same proportions ; (except helium) in our bodies
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: maybe we are made of stars and black holes like Dr. Manjir Samanta Loughton says in their book “Punk Science”
[2012/07/29 12:30] Tuppence Aubin: Yes, I would say spiritual and secular really describes it
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: Shay, lol
[2012/07/29 12:31] Tricipian Serendipity: this is very spritually to me and its secular bc it is an understanding of our reality equal to its terms
[2012/07/29 12:31] Lulu Lacrima: Secular spiritualism?
[2012/07/29 12:31] Lulu Lacrima: I can cotton onto that
[2012/07/29 12:31] Chraeloos: Lulu, lol
[2012/07/29 12:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, I’ve split clouds and directed the way a candle’s flame goes, and it’s by plugging into this all surrounding energy, I believe
[2012/07/29 12:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Either that, or I’m possessed by demons
[2012/07/29 12:31] Chraeloos: Rhi, lol maybe a bit of both 😉
[2012/07/29 12:31] Shay Ellison: or you’re just a naked succubus 😉
[2012/07/29 12:31] Dom Lunasea: or delusions ; same thing
[2012/07/29 12:31] Chraeloos: Dom, why delusions?
[2012/07/29 12:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, well, tell me that when I visit your dreams
[2012/07/29 12:31] Tricipian Serendipity: our avatars are possesed by somethign ㋡
[2012/07/29 12:32] MusE Starsmith: WB RF !
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: re hi RF
[2012/07/29 12:32] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, don’t care if it is a delusion, as long as I can consistently do it and it enhances my life.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: Hi Nitewater
[2012/07/29 12:32] MusE Starsmith: WB Ara
[2012/07/29 12:32] Arabella Eyre (nitewater): TY
[2012/07/29 12:32] Shay Ellison: well, there’s also documented cases of identical twins who can feel pain from each other.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, what’s a delusion?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Dom Lunasea: how do you distinguish a delusion from the matrix
[2012/07/29 12:32] Shay Ellison: even at great distances
[2012/07/29 12:32] Chraeloos: Shay, what do you think that means?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Arabella Eyre (nitewater) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Tricipian Serendipity: here is something to ponder °͜° if we are made of the same stuff; are we allso following the same rules too?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: whoops, let me be more specific, Rhia, what is your delusion?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Arabella Eyre (nitewater) has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Dom said “or delusions;” I ws responding to that
[2012/07/29 12:32] Shay Ellison: not sure, but Rhia is talking about this shared energy.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: yah, I missed it
[2012/07/29 12:32] Dom Lunasea: at what scale Tricip ?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tuppence Aubin: Oh, if you don’t know it’s a delusion then it is a delusion
[2012/07/29 12:33] Bryce Galbraith: Tri — which set of rules ?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, the shared energy.
[2012/07/29 12:33] Chraeloos: Paul, oh neat idea. Maybe we are
[2012/07/29 12:33] Shay Ellison: and maybe we DO influence the energy of others, even if that means creating “delusions” 😉
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tricipian Serendipity: general “rules” of nature
[2012/07/29 12:33] Sonitus Randt: the rules are us
[2012/07/29 12:33] RevRob Beerbaum: how do you mean, Shay?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tricipian Serendipity: even in our thougst too
[2012/07/29 12:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But a delusion is a false belief, irrationally held, that hurts you. You know, like the idea that the Democrats are the party of the common man
[2012/07/29 12:33] Shay Ellison: thanks for the tip Chraeloos 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:33] MusE Starsmith: Sonitus, yes, I see that
[2012/07/29 12:33] Chraeloos: Paul, I think to an extent yes
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tuppence Aubin: lol
[2012/07/29 12:33] Chraeloos: most welcome Shay 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:33] Lulu Lacrima: well, if we all share the same delusion, with the implication being that a delusion does not represent an objective reality, then what does that say about the nature of reality as we perceive an interpret it?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tricipian Serendipity: what i am suggesting is a general dynamic
[2012/07/29 12:33] RevRob Beerbaum: lol nice example, Rhiannon
[2012/07/29 12:34] Dom Lunasea: or Republicans are competent businessmen
[2012/07/29 12:34] Chraeloos: Rhi, lol
[2012/07/29 12:34] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Dom, yes, or that
[2012/07/29 12:34] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, RevRob
[2012/07/29 12:34] Tuppence Aubin: Oh dear
[2012/07/29 12:34] Shay Ellison: Rev, have you ever had a dream with visions of things you never encountered? patterns and shapes that seem meaningless?
[2012/07/29 12:34] RevRob Beerbaum: i’m not sure i follow, Tri
[2012/07/29 12:34] Shay Ellison: our dreams are formed by patters already in our minds, but we sometimes see things we can’t explain.
[2012/07/29 12:34] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely, Shay. meaningless though, only later. at the time very meaningful
[2012/07/29 12:34] Tricipian Serendipity: i prob will need to do an event to explore properly that idea revrob °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:34] Deunan Cuttita has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:34] MusE Starsmith: (BTW, tips are split between the venue and the host, so be generous if you can! Tip Jar is on the stage…THANKS!)
[2012/07/29 12:35] Lulu Lacrima: Perhaps Shay is referring to what others might call the collective unconscious?
[2012/07/29 12:35] Shay Ellison: yes, give it to the tip jar please.
[2012/07/29 12:35] Tuppence Aubin: ty
[2012/07/29 12:35] Shay Ellison: I’ll get a smidgen of it 😉
[2012/07/29 12:35] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The collective unconscious is another word for the Akashic Records, and rests on the assumption that we participate in a common soul
[2012/07/29 12:35] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Which I believe
[2012/07/29 12:35] Bryce Galbraith: Paul, we certainly obey the rules governing matter …
[2012/07/29 12:35] Tricipian Serendipity: right bryce °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:35] MusE Starsmith: (a largish smidgen lol)
[2012/07/29 12:35] Chraeloos: Rhi, a common soul? interesting idea
[2012/07/29 12:35] Chraeloos: like the internet?
[2012/07/29 12:35] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, do you truly believe that we participate in a common soul?
[2012/07/29 12:36] Shay Ellison: lol, in some ways, calling it “energy” is like calling miraculous events we can’t explain, “God”
[2012/07/29 12:36] RevRob Beerbaum: that’s a nice interpretation of the collective unconscious, Rhiannon
[2012/07/29 12:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Chraeloos, minimally, yes
[2012/07/29 12:36] MusE Starsmith: I choose to disobey the law of gravity today….
[2012/07/29 12:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, Rev
[2012/07/29 12:36] RevRob Beerbaum: i remember reading some of Jung’s memoirs, where he felt taht “collective unconscious” as popularly interpreted to be his greatest mistake of wording
[2012/07/29 12:36] Shay Ellison: we’re still trying to figure it all out, but we do feels SOME connection with each other, our friends and loved ones, even our mortal enemies for those that have mortal enemies
[2012/07/29 12:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I had a dog that could levitate. She ran so quickly, I literally saw her floating in air as she moved
[2012/07/29 12:36] Zymony Guyot: MusE…the gravity cops outsourced enforcement of that to the pavement today….:)
[2012/07/29 12:36] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, I’m sorry but I can’t believe your story
[2012/07/29 12:36] Chraeloos: REv, oh interesting
[2012/07/29 12:36] Tricipian Serendipity: i do feel thatconnection °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:36] Dom Lunasea sighs
[2012/07/29 12:37] MusE Starsmith: wow Rhia! does she give lessons?
[2012/07/29 12:37] MusE Starsmith: Zym, hehe
[2012/07/29 12:37] Tricipian Serendipity: but i can feel it too with the trees and rocks; and vistas out here also
[2012/07/29 12:37] Shay Ellison: the gravity cops went on strike when they encountered the massive black hole at the center of our own galaxy 😉
[2012/07/29 12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, and you gave a way to allow us to understand that connection
[2012/07/29 12:37] Chraeloos: lol Muse, agreed. I want lessons too!
[2012/07/29 12:37] Dom Lunasea: of course a running dog can get airborne – so can humans ans horses ; not the same as levitate
[2012/07/29 12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Don’t care, Lulu; I saw it.
[2012/07/29 12:37] Chraeloos: Paul, me too
[2012/07/29 12:37] MusE Starsmith: why sigh, Dom?
[2012/07/29 12:37] Lulu Lacrima: your seeing it doesn’t make it true
[2012/07/29 12:37] RevRob Beerbaum: yes, Tricipian! I feel that very strongly sometimes
[2012/07/29 12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But now I won’t give a naturalistic interpretation. Just so you will continue to not believe it
[2012/07/29 12:37] Barbie (barbiedoll.somerset): I have at times felt my spirit on the verge of flight, when i was dancing.
[2012/07/29 12:37] Tricipian Serendipity: lets stay on topic °͜° this is a one time special event
[2012/07/29 12:37] RevRob Beerbaum: I think “feeling” in general to be the bond of the connection, there
[2012/07/29 12:38] RevRob Beerbaum: isn’t everything 😉
[2012/07/29 12:38] RevRob Beerbaum: (a one time special event)
[2012/07/29 12:38] Shay Ellison: I have an idea to bring it to topic in a few minutes actually 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:38] Barbie (barbiedoll.somerset): But as a being of electrical energy my feet are always seeking ground
[2012/07/29 12:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, and my seeing your text doesn’t make you an intelligent being. Turing, anyone?
[2012/07/29 12:38] MusE Starsmith: Rev, good point.
[2012/07/29 12:38] MusE Starsmith: If we ARE stardust, we can’t help but FEEL that
[2012/07/29 12:38] RF Axel: I wouldn’t claim we fully understand what is possible – just what we have current experience of. And, not all of that. 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:39] Lulu Lacrima: so we agree, as usual, Rhi 😉
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: MusE — what does it feel like?
[2012/07/29 12:39] Tricipian Serendipity: this is a wonderful starting point for secular sprituality bc its offers the connection to the “unknown all” with the same providence of a dieity but absent the supernatural
[2012/07/29 12:39] Lulu Lacrima: how can a diety not be supernatural?
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: I don’t know that I have a feeling of being stardust… I know it more intellectually…
[2012/07/29 12:39] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, shhhh. Tri doesn’t believe in the massive black hole at the center of our galaxy
[2012/07/29 12:39] Lulu Lacrima: by definition, a deity is something that transcends the natural world
[2012/07/29 12:39] MusE Starsmith: Oh, I meant the connection, Bryce. The dust itself is a bit itchy. °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:39] Tricipian Serendipity: who said that tri?
[2012/07/29 12:39] RevRob Beerbaum: Bryce, a similar feeling might be that of a rampant metabolism
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: lol!
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:39] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or wait, is that Sandor? Somebody who gives discussions doesn’t believe in dark matter
[2012/07/29 12:39] Tricipian Serendipity: rhi?
[2012/07/29 12:39] Shay Ellison: and if black holes are PART of the natural world, or universe in this case?
[2012/07/29 12:40] RF Axel: As the Mormons about non-spernatural deities…
[2012/07/29 12:40] Bryce Galbraith: I think that might be Sandor, Rhi…
[2012/07/29 12:40] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, sorry, anyway, was just a joke
[2012/07/29 12:40] Tricipian Serendipity: lets try to keep this a bit more serious
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: we’ll save dark matter and energy for a future discussion I think. that is even more confusing. lol
[2012/07/29 12:40] RF Axel: supernatural*
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: okay! thought experiment time!
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: eyes up on my text!
[2012/07/29 12:40] RevRob Beerbaum: o_o
[2012/07/29 12:40] Dom Lunasea looks at Shay’s .. text
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: I want you all to ponder your connection with the universe, the planets, the stars, jus reflect for a moment
[2012/07/29 12:41] Lulu Lacrima reflects
[2012/07/29 12:41] Shay Ellison: then say something in your own words that appeals to that connection.
[2012/07/29 12:41] RF Axel: Isn’t the universe supposed to match the properties of a black hole?
[2012/07/29 12:41] Shay Ellison: regardless of how different your views and beliefs are, focus on that connection, and lets see if we get some consensus
[2012/07/29 12:41] Shay Ellison: or have differing opinions that still share in that connection.
[2012/07/29 12:41] Lulu Lacrima: I am all, and I am none, a rhythmic breaking dissonance of one
[2012/07/29 12:41] Chraeloos: Lulu, nice!
[2012/07/29 12:41] Lulu Lacrima: 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:41] RevRob Beerbaum: hmm, i feel that connection to be similar to the connection felt at the gas pump. lots of us arriving at the same place, but our futures wildly diverging
[2012/07/29 12:41] Dom Lunasea: I see fleshy orbs , moving rhythmically .. in concert with gravity ..
[2012/07/29 12:42] Dom Lunasea: oh – wait the text
[2012/07/29 12:42] Shay Ellison: nice one Rev 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:42] Lulu Lacrima refrains from commenting on “fleshy orbs”
[2012/07/29 12:42] Shay Ellison: and very poetic Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:42] Lulu Lacrima: ty Shay
[2012/07/29 12:42] RevRob Beerbaum: thanks, Shay 😉
[2012/07/29 12:42] Shay Ellison: I know, I almost facepalmed on the “fleshy orb” one 😀
[2012/07/29 12:42] Tricipian Serendipity: i see thru us the connection to the universe in a very powerful way; thru US the universe has conscousness
[2012/07/29 12:42] Tuppence Aubin: ty Shay
[2012/07/29 12:42] Chraeloos: I’m wondering if “connection” isn’t the right word. Its the same material. Its like opposite sides of the same coin – same thing, just looks different.
[2012/07/29 12:42] RevRob Beerbaum: we all have that commonality of past, and its effects are turbulent and unpredictable, but very much coinciding
[2012/07/29 12:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, we share the universal consciousness–the Brahman and the Atman are the same, just viewed from different perspectives
[2012/07/29 12:43] Shay Ellison: it could be Chraeloos, that our vantage from that material helps define our uniquness 😉
[2012/07/29 12:43] Tricipian Serendipity: i agree chrae °͜° its an inclulsive connection
[2012/07/29 12:43] MusE Starsmith: in a nod to SL, I am made of many pixels as is all
[2012/07/29 12:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) looks at Chrae, as she just made a similar point to mine
[2012/07/29 12:43] Tuppence Aubin: yes
[2012/07/29 12:43] RevRob Beerbaum: speaking of, is anyone familiar with chaos? i feel it very much applies
[2012/07/29 12:43] Chraeloos: Rhi, I like that
[2012/07/29 12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): me too
[2012/07/29 12:44] Tricipian Serendipity: why rev?
[2012/07/29 12:44] Lulu Lacrima: chaos, as in chaos theory?
[2012/07/29 12:44] Chraeloos: Shay, yeah maybe it does – interesting point
[2012/07/29 12:44] Deunan Cuttita: all what i feel is we are just like a thought … cuz energy is the basic which let interact the material stuff … the basic prinicpal is interaction and that builds up the *whole*
[2012/07/29 12:44] RevRob Beerbaum: yeah, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) reaches back and holds unto Chrae’s thigh
[2012/07/29 12:44] Tricipian Serendipity: what is chaos anyway; chaos is an order in itself
[2012/07/29 12:44] Lulu Lacrima: or chaos, as in entropy?
[2012/07/29 12:44] RF Axel: Be polite to the electrons – they are doing their best. 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:44] Lulu Lacrima: chaos is the converse of order
[2012/07/29 12:44] Shay Ellison: this isn’t academic discussion though, so keep theories of M and “brane” theory to yourselves today 😉
[2012/07/29 12:44] Tricipian Serendipity: is it?
[2012/07/29 12:44] Chraeloos: RF lol
[2012/07/29 12:44] RevRob Beerbaum: more chaos as in the theory. entropy is an expression of
[2012/07/29 12:45] Tricipian Serendipity: chaos and order only exist bc there are conscious beings to select waht is of each
[2012/07/29 12:45] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely, Shay 🙂 I think of chaos as “repeating, though unpredictable patterns”
[2012/07/29 12:45] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Paul, so you don’t think the patterns are real?
[2012/07/29 12:45] Deunan Cuttita: what means real?
[2012/07/29 12:45] Dom Lunasea: many pretty words
[2012/07/29 12:45] MusE Starsmith: consciousness is necessary to the universe, but generated from where?
[2012/07/29 12:45] Lulu Lacrima: Seren, I would argue, not in total contradiction to your point, but that chaos and order only exists because they are complementary to each other
[2012/07/29 12:45] Tricipian Serendipity: before humans came along; the universe was doing what it was s doing
[2012/07/29 12:45] RevRob Beerbaum: meaning, since we are all expressions of a sort of unity, that our evolution repeats the patterns
[2012/07/29 12:45] Lulu Lacrima: thus, without the one, we could not define or understand the other
[2012/07/29 12:45] Tricipian Serendipity: no rhi; i dont
[2012/07/29 12:45] Zymony Guyot: I feel like there is a chain or link or line between me and everything…..atoms i’ve touched touch other atoms, touching other atoms, and so on out into the far reaches of what I can see, beyond that to what I can’t, beyond that to what I imagine, and even beyond that to things that every logical atom in my brain tells me doesn’t even exist….
[2012/07/29 12:46] RevRob Beerbaum: so the solar system continues in a certain way, and our selves are another expression of it
[2012/07/29 12:46] Chraeloos: Lulu, I agree
[2012/07/29 12:46] RF Axel: All patterns are real – matter is a pattern of energy; is energy just patterned space?
[2012/07/29 12:46] Lulu Lacrima: evolution is not a process that follows patterns, not even those suggestive in chaos theory
[2012/07/29 12:46] RevRob Beerbaum: wow, Zymony – nice
[2012/07/29 12:46] RevRob Beerbaum: i’d disagree with that, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:46] Tricipian Serendipity: order is selective; it requires us ; tho we are part of it , order is not somethig existing indpendantly
[2012/07/29 12:46] Chraeloos: Maybe we’re a figment of the universe’s imagination
[2012/07/29 12:46] Chraeloos: lol
[2012/07/29 12:46] Shay Ellison: consider this as well everyone: what if the atoms that make up your right arm, came from a DIFFERENT star than the atoms in your left arm? 😉
[2012/07/29 12:47] Tuppence Aubin: Patterms are our way of making order from Chaos, who is to say if it is real
[2012/07/29 12:47] Dom Lunasea: they did
[2012/07/29 12:47] RevRob Beerbaum: at the very least, evolution as referenced in biology, all uses living matter as a pattern
[2012/07/29 12:47] Tricipian Serendipity: the “order” of the universe is just what eveer its doing
[2012/07/29 12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So the law of gravity didn’t exist before human consciousness?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Tricipian Serendipity: that is not waht i am saying rhi!
[2012/07/29 12:47] Lulu Lacrima: evolution relies on randomness….and chaos theory, at its heart, suggests there is order to randomness…but I would argue that there are different types of randomness
[2012/07/29 12:47] Zymony Guyot: Isn’t order and chaos merely different ages in the life of the same thing?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Lulu Lacrima: which is being very vague, I know
[2012/07/29 12:47] RevRob Beerbaum: lol, Shay. but at the very least they’d have a common ancestor at some point in the past, wouldn’t they?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Shay Ellison: even our dreams evolve from patterns too
[2012/07/29 12:47] RevRob Beerbaum: could you go more into that, Lulu?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Shay Ellison: yes Rev, that giant freakin cosmically HUGE gas cloud
[2012/07/29 12:47] Chraeloos: Zym, well put
[2012/07/29 12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then what are you saying, Tri? You said that order and patterns didn’t exist without humans
[2012/07/29 12:48] Lulu Lacrima: Humans are pattern-seekers
[2012/07/29 12:48] You decline NCI Dream Seeker Small Ground Classroom from A group member named Alaska Udimo.
[2012/07/29 12:48] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that would seem to include the order and pattern of the law of gravity
[2012/07/29 12:48] Tuppence Aubin: Sometimes, sometimes they are a way of looking at the same thing
[2012/07/29 12:48] RevRob Beerbaum: or cosmically tiny, at some point
[2012/07/29 12:48] Tricipian Serendipity: the dicernment doesnt exist rhi
[2012/07/29 12:48] MusE Starsmith: A contiuum, yes, Zym
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: we do take comfort in patterns. even our stubborn beliefs are there because of patterns.
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: and when our patterns or beliefs are challenged. . . .
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: discord and conflict!
[2012/07/29 12:48] Lulu Lacrima: we seek patterns even where none exist
[2012/07/29 12:48] Bryce Galbraith: Yes, indeed Shay 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:48] Tuppence Aubin: Yes we do
[2012/07/29 12:48] Bryce Galbraith: very well put…
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: oh yeah, I haven’t given my opinion yet. 😉
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: it’s gonna pimp smack theists a little but. . .
[2012/07/29 12:49] Chraeloos: Shay, what do you think?
[2012/07/29 12:49] RevRob Beerbaum: well i don’t think that’s a faulty comfort at all. pattern is a natural result of any assumption of law or commonality of behavior
[2012/07/29 12:49] MusE Starsmith: “comfort in patterns” hadn’t thought of it that way
[2012/07/29 12:49] Dom Lunasea: stubborn beliefs : http://whywebelieveingods.hatjinx.com/
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: our connection, our shared oneness does something that organized religion has failed on providing:
[2012/07/29 12:49] Chraeloos: I like that – “comfort in patterns”. So true
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: simplicity
[2012/07/29 12:49] Tricipian Serendipity: ah!!!! yes shay! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: we all came from a whole and are now diverse
[2012/07/29 12:49] Lulu Lacrima: such as Pareidolia
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: without commandments
[2012/07/29 12:49] RevRob Beerbaum: i’m not sure what you mean, Shay
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: without doctrine
[2012/07/29 12:49] Zymony Guyot has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:49] Tricipian Serendipity: but yet we are still a whole shay
[2012/07/29 12:50] Lulu Lacrima: e.g., seeing the face of Jesus in a cloud or tortilla
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: and it is that simplicity that trancends all notions of God
[2012/07/29 12:50] MusE Starsmith: ty Dom
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tuppence Aubin: Oh dear we keep losing people
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: at least our deistic ones
[2012/07/29 12:50] Chraeloos: Shay, I like that
[2012/07/29 12:50] RevRob Beerbaum: uh-oh, Tuppence
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: which helped me actually redefine God
[2012/07/29 12:50] RF Axel: If God throws dice, how many sides do they have? 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: into something not theistic
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tricipian Serendipity: simplicity is the start of all things
[2012/07/29 12:50] Chraeloos: Paul, and the end?
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: roll the dice to see if I”m getting drunk!
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tuppence Aubin: Indeed Rob
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: 😀
[2012/07/29 12:50] RevRob Beerbaum: i’d think that the simplicity is more of a direct acknowledgement of a deity, Shay
[2012/07/29 12:50] MusE Starsmith: yes, a few crashes…but they find their way back from the chaos, Tupp
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tricipian Serendipity: yes °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:50] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tuppence Aubin: I know
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: god od the internet is mad at them
[2012/07/29 12:51] Shay Ellison: fair enough, but is it necessary to live out our lives to hard and fast rules?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Lulu Lacrima: are we presupposing the existence of dieties simply b/c there seems to be some pattern to the chaos of this universe?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Chraeloos: Dom, lol
[2012/07/29 12:51] MusE Starsmith: Do you Rev? How so?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tricipian Serendipity: i think theer is a diff to simplicy and simplifying; re god
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tuppence Aubin: No, the internet is controlled by cats
[2012/07/29 12:51] RevRob Beerbaum: necessary, Shay?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Shay Ellison: to still share this connection with the beginning, do we need to punish ourselves with enforced suffering?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: cat + god
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: scary
[2012/07/29 12:51] Shay Ellison: with our limited notions of how to live our lives?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Lulu Lacrima: what if we’re engaging in nothing more than Pareidolia, on a larger scale?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tuppence Aubin: Very
[2012/07/29 12:51] Zymony Guyot has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:51] MusE Starsmith: cod?
[2012/07/29 12:51] MusE Starsmith: WV Zym
[2012/07/29 12:51] Lulu Lacrima: what if we’re finding patterns b/c we are predispose to do so, when in fact none exist?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: lol
[2012/07/29 12:52] Chraeloos: wb zym
[2012/07/29 12:52] Tuppence Aubin: YEs Zymony
[2012/07/29 12:52] Chraeloos: Lulu, probably
[2012/07/29 12:52] RF Axel: You are using D20, not 3D6 – God hates you! 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:52] Dom Lunasea: exactly Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:52] Chraeloos: lol RF
[2012/07/29 12:52] MusE Starsmith: Lulu, that is worth considering!
[2012/07/29 12:52] Zymony Guyot: Thanks 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:52] Tricipian Serendipity: but that also makes us part of the process too lulu
[2012/07/29 12:52] RevRob Beerbaum: i don’t understand that, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:52] Shay Ellison: jus recently all of you had differing thoughts of you and the universe, yet still sharing a simplistic notion of oneness, a conection that goes beyond our concious imaginings
[2012/07/29 12:52] Dom Lunasea: our ancestors survived by over-believing in patterns
[2012/07/29 12:52] Lulu Lacrima: I don’t disagree, Seren
[2012/07/29 12:52] Shay Ellison: that’s the simplicity I was referring to
[2012/07/29 12:53] RevRob Beerbaum: i guess if we consider “pattern” as some sort of pre-determination, we’d lose out
[2012/07/29 12:53] Lulu Lacrima: RevBob, we are by nature predisposed to find patterns
[2012/07/29 12:53] Shay Ellison: that we don’t have to complicate our lives with doctrine and scripture, especially forcing it on others.
[2012/07/29 12:53] Shay Ellison: be happy with our beliefs, no matte how they differ, yet still sharing something in common
[2012/07/29 12:53] Lulu Lacrima: and as a result, we are also predisposed to display a cognitive bias for pattern-seeking, even where there are none
[2012/07/29 12:53] RevRob Beerbaum: Lulu – but what of that predisposition? where would that come from?
[2012/07/29 12:53] Tuppence Aubin: Maybe, there is a lot we don’t know about our ancesterors
[2012/07/29 12:53] Tricipian Serendipity: but we do have to force ourselves to some sort of consensus being to function in a society shay
[2012/07/29 12:53] Dom Lunasea: evolution
[2012/07/29 12:53] Bryce Galbraith: Yep… we’ll fill in gaps to make a pattern work if we need to… and we won’t even realize we’ve done that 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:54] Shay Ellison: well sure Tri. civilization is the hotspots for conflict among each other
[2012/07/29 12:54] Shay Ellison: if you want to avoid dealing with other people, become a hermit! 😀
[2012/07/29 12:54] Lulu Lacrima: Pareidolia
[2012/07/29 12:54] Dom Lunasea: pretty word
[2012/07/29 12:54] Lulu Lacrima: look it up! 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:54] Tuppence Aubin: Not I, hermits have it hard
[2012/07/29 12:54] Tricipian Serendipity: prob is we t hink “our way” is the only way; we dont see it as part of the same process as just “a” way
[2012/07/29 12:54] Lulu Lacrima: I like that, Seren
[2012/07/29 12:54] Zymony Guyot: If we consider “pattern” to be any form of repetition, short of having an infinite type of non-reapeating atoms, patterns are inevitable. Seeking them I think is just a universal method of finding your bearings cosmically speaking.
[2012/07/29 12:54] RevRob Beerbaum: Shay – i think the doctrine and scripture has more of a nod towards the teaching of a path – people have followed certain paths, found certain truths or experiences, and are passing on a sort of method aimed to help others arrive at such
[2012/07/29 12:55] Lulu Lacrima: afk for a sec
[2012/07/29 12:55] MusE Starsmith: Yes we do Bryce. Whence comes the initial pattern?
[2012/07/29 12:55] Tuppence Aubin: I live that Zym
[2012/07/29 12:55] Shay Ellison: yes, good thought Tri. there are many ways to write a program that adds 1 and 1 together. all programs can differ, but they still arrive at the same outcome 😉
[2012/07/29 12:55] MusE Starsmith: hb Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:55] RF Axel: How will the priests persuade us to give them free food, then? 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:55] Tricipian Serendipity: exactly shay ㋡
[2012/07/29 12:55] Tuppence Aubin: I don’t have a priest
[2012/07/29 12:55] Amandeep Timeless: patterns to stack the odds
[2012/07/29 12:56] RevRob Beerbaum: i like that, Zymony
[2012/07/29 12:56] Shay Ellison: keep in mind Rev, truth is also perception. what we take away from a given event, and that does not aid in eye witness testimony
[2012/07/29 12:56] MusE Starsmith: RF! ㋡
[2012/07/29 12:56] Lulu Lacrima: back
[2012/07/29 12:56] Shay Ellison: like that classroom experiment where one child whispers something to the one next to them, and then throughout the entire room
[2012/07/29 12:56] Shay Ellison: but ending up with a totally different phrase.
[2012/07/29 12:56] Zymony Guyot: Well some patterns when identified, win you bar bets and little else…..others let you make tons of money in say the football pool or the stock market 🙂
[2012/07/29 12:56] Tricipian Serendipity: patterns are parts of the whole; not apart from it
[2012/07/29 12:56] MusE Starsmith: Yes, always astounding, that experiment, Shay
[2012/07/29 12:56] Tuppence Aubin: Good point
[2012/07/29 12:56] Lulu Lacrima: sometimes the whole is not the sum of its parts
[2012/07/29 12:56] Sonitus Randt: like waves on the ocean, paul
[2012/07/29 12:57] Lulu Lacrima: a Gestalt perspective
[2012/07/29 12:57] Tricipian Serendipity: yes
[2012/07/29 12:57] RevRob Beerbaum: still, Shay, even if we say that a certain site (like the beach) is worth seeing, we’re saying that going to such a site (reproducing the events) is a good thing
[2012/07/29 12:57] Tricipian Serendipity: the whole is always the sum of its parts
[2012/07/29 12:57] Tricipian Serendipity: we select diff parts to call a whole tho hehe
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: and you you ask two women or two men in love if their relationship is good or evil, then ask a devout priest for the catholic faith the same, you will likely get two seperate answers
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: so what IS good, and what IS evil?
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: what is truth?
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: yours? mine?
[2012/07/29 12:58] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:58] RevRob Beerbaum: ours
[2012/07/29 12:58] Lulu Lacrima: nope, there is a phenomenon in psychology that is “gestalt” which illustrates experimimentally that we actually will perceive a “whole” object without all of its constituent parts
[2012/07/29 12:58] Tricipian Serendipity: those are deep tangents shay hehe
[2012/07/29 12:58] MusE Starsmith: WB Rhia
[2012/07/29 12:58] Shay Ellison: that’s the end goal, to hopefully find some shared belief we don’t have to kill and/or hurt each other over.
[2012/07/29 12:58] RevRob Beerbaum: creativty, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:58] RF Axel: No emergent stuff, then, Tri?
[2012/07/29 12:58] MusE Starsmith: worthy goal, Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:58] Chraeloos: wb Rhi
[2012/07/29 12:58] RevRob Beerbaum: well killing each other is politics – not spirituality
[2012/07/29 12:58] Dom Lunasea: ask the vegetarians about killing each other ;
[2012/07/29 12:58] Tricipian Serendipity: but again good and evil is like order an chaos
[2012/07/29 12:59] Tricipian Serendipity: they are biases
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: not really, RevBob, even simple perceptual entitites
[2012/07/29 12:59] Shay Ellison: we almost at end of discussion. I guess this is where it can go in any direction, but before we wrap up, any final thoughts from the gang?
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: what I’m describing now is not a bias
[2012/07/29 12:59] Dom Lunasea: we are all starstuff , we share dna ; we eat each other
[2012/07/29 12:59] Shay Ellison: what’s a good takeaway to um. . . take away? 😀
[2012/07/29 12:59] Chraeloos: Shay, you did a great job. I’d love to see events like this more often!
[2012/07/29 12:59] Tricipian Serendipity: sure there is emergence
[2012/07/29 12:59] Dom Lunasea: mmmm takeaway
[2012/07/29 12:59] Zymony Guyot: Yes….Very Well Done Shay!!!!
[2012/07/29 12:59] MusE Starsmith: hmmm, Dom! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:59] RevRob Beerbaum: give us a focus, Shay?
[2012/07/29 12:59] Melody (melody.trefusis) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:59] Amandeep Timeless: thanks Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: it’s just the way our brains works: we decode information that’s merely sufficient to define a “whole” without always incorporating all of its parts
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: it’s actually an efficient process
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: if you think about it
[2012/07/29 13:00] Lulu Lacrima: thus evolutionarily sensible
[2012/07/29 13:00] Tricipian Serendipity: i have the anser to the focus hehe
[2012/07/29 13:00] Amandeep Timeless: decipher enough to be useful
[2012/07/29 13:00] RevRob Beerbaum: hehe
[2012/07/29 13:00] Shay Ellison: many scientists would call it categorization, Lulu 🙂
[2012/07/29 13:00] Lulu Lacrima: amandeep, exactly
[2012/07/29 13:00] Lulu Lacrima: no, shay, it’s Gestalt
[2012/07/29 13:00] RF Axel: That we can exchange views shows we are connected?
[2012/07/29 13:00] Tricipian Serendipity: look at your own life ; if we are part of the all then our lives are the all too
[2012/07/29 13:00] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely, Tricipian
[2012/07/29 13:00] Chraeloos: Paul, I like that
[2012/07/29 13:00] RevRob Beerbaum: we are the fringes of the same process
[2012/07/29 13:00] Tricipian Serendipity: there is nothing we are doing that is outside of being
[2012/07/29 13:01] MusE Starsmith: (In the chaos, you may not have remembered that the tip jar is on the stage, but there it is, should you wish it) ㋡
[2012/07/29 13:01] Shay Ellison: “No man is an island, entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.” — John Donne
[2012/07/29 13:01] Amandeep Timeless: you decide which molecules will be
[2012/07/29 13:01] Tricipian Serendipity: hear here! shay
[2012/07/29 13:01] Lulu Lacrima: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology#Properties
[2012/07/29 13:01] Shay Ellison: damnit! I could’ve worked that quote in earlier! 😀
[2012/07/29 13:01] MusE Starsmith: such a good one, Shay
[2012/07/29 13:02] RF Axel: Your teeth like you -if they didn’t you’d be in real trouble – that sort of conclusion? 🙂
[2012/07/29 13:02] Dom Lunasea: pretty words
[2012/07/29 13:02] MusE Starsmith: Aman, oh…!
[2012/07/29 13:02] Tricipian Serendipity: i really liked this event °͜°
[2012/07/29 13:02] Sonitus Randt: enjoyed this shay, all very interesting
[2012/07/29 13:02] Shay Ellison: pretty words preceede pompous posturings? 😀
[2012/07/29 13:02] Bryce Galbraith: thanks for hosting Shay 🙂
[2012/07/29 13:02] RevRob Beerbaum: thanks so much, Shay!
[2012/07/29 13:02] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “I am you and you are me and we are all together; I am the Walrus; I am the Egg man. Koo koo a choo”
[2012/07/29 13:02] Chraeloos: Thank you so much Shay!
[2012/07/29 13:02] Tuppence Aubin: thank you
[2012/07/29 13:02] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Applause!
[2012/07/29 13:03] MusE Starsmith: This was fantastic, really good job, Shay!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Zymony Guyot: For me the takeaway is that even though I consider myself a conscious human with my own thoughts and self-awareness….I might still be a tiny molecule in a greater organism that I cannot comprehend….for now I’m calling it “God” but “Working Title” could be just as suitable….and that my quest for spirituality is the gradual understanding of what playing this part means….
[2012/07/29 13:03] Barbie (barbiedoll.somerset): I’m bitter because everyone here seems so much more informed on the topic than am I 😉
[2012/07/29 13:03] Chraeloos: lol Rhi, love it
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tuppence Aubin: More applause
[2012/07/29 13:03] Arabella Eyre (nitewater): And all you need is love?
[2012/07/29 13:03] Shay Ellison: thanks for sharing your views and finding our beliefs are possibly different takes on a shared ideal
[2012/07/29 13:03] MusE Starsmith: LIke that, Zymony
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tricipian Serendipity: open stage discussions! (new event???)
[2012/07/29 13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Arabella, exactly
[2012/07/29 13:03] Zymony Guyot: Yes Shay, wonderful discussion!!!
[2012/07/29 13:03] RevRob Beerbaum: Zymony – interesting!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Chraeloos: Zym, agreed!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Lulu Lacrima: Shay, terrific job!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It was a smashing success, Paul, so I’d say, yes
[2012/07/29 13:03] MusE Starsmith: * * clap clap clap * *
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tricipian Serendipity: maybe our beliefds are not all that different
[2012/07/29 13:03] Dom Lunasea: Poets priests and politicians
Have words to thank for their positions
Words that scream for your submission
And no-one’s jamming their transmission
‘Cos when their eloquence escapes you
Their logic ties you up and rapes you
[2012/07/29 13:03] Shay Ellison: that was the title of John Donne’s poem actually, Love
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tricipian Serendipity: if they stem from the same star stuff must be something common there °͜°
[2012/07/29 13:03] Amandeep Timeless: 1/7 billionth God
[2012/07/29 13:04] Zymony Guyot: PRobably not Tri….we like like killing each other over a working title 🙂
[2012/07/29 13:04] Shay Ellison: another definition for love, as if we didn’t have too many already 😉
[2012/07/29 13:04] Shay Ellison: the all inclusive definitions of love are my favorite

Secular Saturday Transcript Aug 4 2012


Below is a copy of the transcript form the August 4 Secular Saturday held at Tricipian Center at 10pmSLT. I got everyones permission to post this, and I didn’t edit out anyone’s names. Great discussion guys. Thank you!

[22:07] Chraeloos: Ok, well lets get started then. Welcome everyone to Secular Saturday! I’m so glad you could all make it 🙂 If you like what you see and want to see more please leave a donation, the bowl is in the back between Violet and Sonitus!
[22:07] Chraeloos: The topic today is the two links I put into chat before…
[22:07] Chraeloos: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/03/russian-mogul-soliciting-billonaires-to-achieve-immortality/
[22:07] Chraeloos: http://io9.com/5931388/immortality-by-2045-russian-scientists-think-its-possible
[22:08] Chraeloos: Basically, the story goes…
[22:08] Chraeloos: A Russian scientist has sent a letter to the Forbes list of richest people asking for them to give him money for a project he’s starting. He intends to have created a holographic human body for us to reside in by 2045, so that we can be immortal.
[22:08] Chraeloos: The stages of said process are as follows:
[22:09] Chraeloos: A: 2015 – 20 A robotic copy of a human body remotely controlled
[22:09] Chraeloos: B: 2020-2025 An avatar in which a human brain can be transplanted (and personality – soul?)
[22:10] Chraeloos: C: 2030-2035 An avatar in which an artificial brain exists and where a humans personality can be transferred
[22:10] Chraeloos: and D: 2040-2045 A holographic-like avatar
[22:11] Chraeloos: Some of the people are supporting him, some are not.
[22:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: Like the Doctor in Voyager, only he’s you.
[22:11] Chraeloos: What do you think?
[22:11] Rory Torrance: everyone always seem to think that artificial intelligence ought to be so easy, but man the progress has been more than disappointing. i wish them well but my feeling is no chance in hell
[22:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I think go for it. Get donations, do the work, see what happens
[22:11] Chraeloos: Rory, how no chance?
[22:11] Chraeloos: Rhia, what if it doesn’t? WHat happens to all that money?
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: It goes to support people who in turn buy things and support other people. Money is like energy–it never dies
[22:12] Bryce Galbraith: Chrae — that money will be in the Cayman Islands somewhere 😉
[22:12] Rory Torrance: they cant even make a computer think for itself, much less really copy a human consciousness
[22:12] Chraeloos: For those who came in late, we’re talking about these two articles: http://io9.com/5931388/immortality-by-2045-russian-scientists-think-its-possible and http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/03/russian-mogul-soliciting-billonaires-to-achieve-immortality/
[22:12] Chraeloos: Rhi, sometimes
[22:12] MarieEcho: i wonder how consciousness can be transplanted
[22:12] Chraeloos: Bryce, lol probably!
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, if you believe that the brain correlates with the mind, then you can create an artificial brain.
[22:12] Chraeloos: Rory, yeah, true
[22:12] Bryce Galbraith: Basically they’re going after the whole singularity thing…
[22:12] Rory Torrance: we are nowhere near really having a clue what consciousness is
[22:12] Violet: I think if you’re going to get super into a project like this, you’re going to hit a wall sooner or later with the question of how much awareness and physiology are tangled up…
[22:12] Chraeloos: Marie, what is consciousness?
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, it’s no more of a problem than any other research that might fail
[22:13] Chraeloos: Bryce, yes. And Rhi, true – it must be physical to work
[22:13] Bryce Galbraith: The thing is, I think it would have been more realistic to go for a kind of ‘clinical immortality’… basically make existing bodies last a lot longer.
[22:13] Chraeloos: Violet, agreed
[22:13] Violet: Right, Bryce
[22:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, it’s not either…or. There are people working on that too
[22:13] Chraeloos: Rhi, true, but this may be one of the most expensive endeavors yet
[22:13] MusE Starsmith: Like cyborgs, Bryce?
[22:13] Bryce Galbraith: yes, that’s true Rhi…
[22:13] MarieEcho: emergent property from physical conditions in the brain, which i dont really understand either
[22:13] Chraeloos: Bryce, “a lot longer” isn’t forever, though
[22:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: That’s the beauty of private enterprise–you don’t have to appeal to a committee which might approve you this year and not approve you next year
[22:14] Rory Torrance: i bet the biological approach will succeed long before we have true artificial consciousness
[22:14] Bryce Galbraith: MusE — not like cyborgs… at least not what I’m thinking of.
[22:14] Violet: Good answer, Marie 🙂
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi, true lol
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, I agree with Arthur C. Clarke–Methuselah is probably the wall
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rory, why?
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi, whats that?
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: But can you imagine people going–oh, well, since I can only live to 900 at most, why bother with life extension?
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi lol true
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, that the brain probably can’t take more than 900 years of experience
[22:15] XTC: …so who’s going to own me?
[22:15] Rory Torrance: because we understand the genetic mechanisms of death a little but, but we dont understand consciousness at all
[22:15] Violet: I think slowing down aging and advances in regenerative medicine are doable, eventually….but I really don’t know about stuff like consciousness transfer
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: In the past century the average lifespan has increased significantly just from things like improved sanitation, better medical care, improved diets, and such.
[22:15] AnthonyE Staryk: ever heard of Aubrey de Grey, he proposes that aging is disease, that can be “engineered” away…
[22:15] Chraeloos: XTC, Great question
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah.. that does ring a bell Anthony…
[22:15] Chraeloos: Rhia, oh good point. Is there a limit to our memories?
[22:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, that’s true, but the biblical three score and ten, four score if you’re really struggling, is the current average.
[22:15] MarieEcho: and what does it mean to live on, means to resume the same identity…if consicousness is preserved, then the identity is preserved too? thus lifespan gets longer?
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: actually there’s somebody else that is making that argument too .. about aging being a disease.. but I can’t place her name.
[22:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s just that with good nutrition, clean conditions, medicines and, above all, wealth, that’s a democratic goal now
[22:15] Chraeloos: Violet, what makes it different than prolonging cell life?
[22:16] Violet: I know Aubrey deGrey is doing work there, Bryce
[22:16] XTC: aging isn’t a disease, its a state of mind
[22:16] Chraeloos: Bryce, very true, but a lot more people have memory degeneration
[22:16] AnthonyE Staryk: what happens when an immortal commits a crime, such as murder? gives a whole new concept to “life sentence”
[22:16] Chraeloos: Anthony, interesting
[22:16] MarieEcho: i am unsure if a holograph of a person means the person’s life is prelonged
[22:17] Violet: Prolonging cell life would be pretty useful, I think, Chrae…especially in stuff like anemias
[22:17] Chraeloos: XTC interesting, how so?
[22:17] Sonitus Randt: i wonder if, past a certain number of years, there might be a limit to what consciousness can tolerate, similar to the way we can’t stay awake for days and dayswithout hallucinating, etc. Is there an “awareness limit” before we see through to what reality really is?
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: Yes, Anthony…SciFi explores some of these themes, but we don’t really know.
[22:17] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, I think there was a Trilight Zone about that; the devil gives a man immortality. The guy’s wife, terrified, leaps to her death. He decides to take the rap for it so as to be electrocuted (he can’t die, remember?) His lawyers get him life instead. heh.
[22:17] Chraeloos: Marie, good point.
[22:17] Rory Torrance: even if you make a robot that behaves exactly like you do you really think that will be YOU in there?
[22:17] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, yes, Clark likened it to the mind being a palimsist
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: I don’t really see a POINT to extending life…why is longer better, if you’ll forgive me?
[22:17] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that’s true Chrae — we’ve extended life but revealed a lot of other problems associated with aging — alzheimers, dementia, various cancers, just the physical body wearing out.
[22:17] Chraeloos: Sonitus, interesting, so you’re suggesting that reality is separate from what we see now?
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: right, Rory…where/who/how/ is “me”?
[22:18] Bryce Galbraith: That’s where the challenge is… I suspect those are more tractable problems than trying to capture your mind and upload that into a computer to inhabit an avatar of some kind.
[22:18] Rory Torrance: yes indeed
[22:18] AnthonyE Staryk: what if aging is as XTC says simply a “state of mind”…a meme that we’ve all been infected with?
[22:18] Chraeloos: Rory, good question. Would it be?
[22:18] Violet: I think if consciousness is transferrable, that pretty much breaks our models of the universe….and if it’s only “copyable,” then blah. That’s just depressing 🙂
[22:18] Rory Torrance: i very much doubt it
[22:18] Rhiannon of the Birds: yes, there is a real problem in personal identity associated with longevity
[22:18] Sonitus Randt: I suggesting it might go deeper, rabbit hole like to…. where?
[22:18] Bryce Galbraith: Oh — I think I remember that episode of the Twilight Zone now Rhi!
[22:19] Chraeloos: Muse, I agree completely. If we’re immortal, what do we do when the planet dies? When our earth explodes? Float around in space? Whats powering our hologram?
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, if the mind is copyable–that raises issues of personal identity, but not if it’s transferable
[22:19] Sonitus Randt: Can opt out of immortality with suicide.
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, although much will slow down if we are immortal, maybe getting warp drive becomes the one priority for that reason. lol
[22:19] Chraeloos: Violet, lol depressing, I like that. like “its that simple?”
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, unless they make opting out illegal and then they bring you back.
[22:19] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose our mind being copied would be a way of creating a clone of sorts.. the copy would then have its own existence from that point..
[22:20] Bryce Galbraith: It might be like the multiple ‘Agent Smiths’ in The Matrix 🙂
[22:20] MusE Starsmith: “Mind” and “identity” aren’t the same thing…
[22:20] Chraeloos: Sonitus, would we want to go there? How long do you have to be dead for htem to not be able to transfer?
[22:20] AnthonyE Staryk: your memories and your mind, your neural pathways may be duplicatible, does that means your awareness/consciousness is?
[22:20] Violet: I was thinking more like The Possibility of an Island….and all the future-me’s making mopey LiveJournal posts for eternity… 😛
[22:20] Chraeloos: Bryce, oh maybe haha
[22:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, or that Outer Limits which took place in a society that only allowed organ cloning; not whole body cloning; a couple of scientists did it anyway–something went wrong and this guy ended up with his wife and clone wife.
[22:20] harmoniasophia Scribe: could you expound on that Muse
[22:20] Violet: That’s where the wall is, I thin, Muse
[22:20] Chraeloos: Anthony, what do you think?
[22:21] Chraeloos: Violet, lol! I love livejournal…miss it a bit haha
[22:21] Bryce Galbraith: hmm… I don’t remember that Outer Limits episode.. was that the original series or the ‘New Outer Limits’ Rhi?
[22:21] Violet: I don’t really think awareness can be reduced…so dealing with it as a physical property is…hard to wrap my head around
[22:21] MusE Starsmith: Star Trek original, where they transferred some aliens’ minds into Spock, et al
[22:21] Rory Torrance: i cant think of the title but there was an old scifi novel by jack williamson about this guy who might as well be in hell because a company owns his pattern and they beam him all over the galaxy to do dangerous or fatal jobs, he is killed over and over and has to keep coming back… that kind of nonsense will be a real danger if they ever get this stuff to work
[22:21] Violet: 🙂 Chrae
[22:21] Rhiannon of the Birds: And clone wife had a download of first wife’s personality
[22:21] Chraeloos: Violet, I agree
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, right, I remember that series. He had an ‘elan’ or something
[22:22] Chraeloos: Rory, oh true. Would there be crime if we lived forever?
[22:22] Rory Torrance: cant recall exactly, its been a long time
[22:22] Violet: Hi Tri 🙂
[22:22] Bryce GalbraithBryce Galbraith is suddenly amused by the possible new avenues for social drama from having various clones of one’s self running about 😉
[22:22] Rory Torrance: i bet there would be whole new kinds of crime
[22:22] AnthonyE Staryk: I don’t believe that our consciousness is the same as the mind that is in our body. Since we are able to observe ourselves. Observe our thoughts arising out of the ether in our mind when in deep meditation, I think there’s something beyond the mind/brain in our bodies.
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: hi Paul!
[22:22] Chraeloos: Hey Pual!
[22:22] Chraeloos: lol Bryce!
[22:22] Bryce Galbraith: Oh! And maybe this is where we start adding numbers after our names to distinguish copies of an original! “Bryce Galbraith 43”
[22:22] Rory Torrance: yes i agree anthony
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, I agree
[22:23] Chraeloos: Rory, probably. we get creative that way I fear
[22:23] XTC: namaste, paul
[22:23] MusE Starsmith: TY harmonia. Mind, to me is the “thing” we all share, our “selves” are made up of our physicality as well. We may exist without the body shell, but what exists isn’t the “us” we know.
[22:23] MarieEcho: i dont think making a clone of oneself prelongs that person’s life….he would die any way, only his repication, athe clone child lives on
[22:23] MusE Starsmith: Hi Paul
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: Hey Paul…
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that’s a good point Marie…
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, Bryce; like I have a series of alts with the first being Rhia007, the next will be 008, etc.
[22:23] Chraeloos: Bryce, hahaha I hope not. I don’t want to be a number in a system…oh wait we already are…;)
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Marie, yes, clones are survivors, like children.
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: too late Chrae… that too has come to pass 🙂
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s the same sense of immortality we have now
[22:23] AnthonyE Staryk: In that case, the trick becomes that element of humans that has yet to be defined, beyond, the recognition of 8 ozs less weight in a body after an individual has expired.
[22:24] Violet: And clones would become more susceptible to disease quicker than natural children
[22:24] harmoniasophia Scribe: interesting thoughts Muse
[22:24] Violet: So the line would get wiped out, anyway.
[22:24] Chraeloos: anthony, very true
[22:24] Chraeloos: Hey Paul!
[22:24] AnthonyE Staryk: cloning fails after a known number of iterations
[22:24] Violet: wb Tri
[22:24] Chraeloos: Violet, why?
[22:24] MusE Starsmith: WB Paul
[22:24] Rhiannon of the Birds: But if Clark is right, after a certain point, Methusalah will not have any direct memory links to his younger self–so in what sense is he the same person? Parfitt used that in his problems of personal identity
[22:24] Bryce Galbraith: On the subject of immortality, I remember now in Kim Stanley Robinson’s ‘Icehenge’ he portrayed a future human society that was starting to expand into the solar system, and along the way they achieve a kind of clinical immortality.
[22:24] Tricipian Serendipity: hi
[22:24] Chraeloos: Muse, very interesting. What makes you think that?
[22:24] Bryce Galbraith: You could still die from an accident and such…
[22:25] Violet: Well, the big advantage of sexual reproduction is that we mix up our genetics 🙂
[22:25] Chraeloos: Paul we’re talking about this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/03/russian-mogul-soliciting-billonaires-to-achieve-immortality/ and http://io9.com/5931388/immortality-by-2045-russian-scientists-think-its-possible
[22:25] Chraeloos: Bryce, maybe not. THey’d just upload you into a new body from the main server, like in BSG
[22:25] Tricipian Serendipity: extending the longevity of life will do us little good if we dont improve the quality of life
[22:25] Rhiannon of the Birds: Violet, right; that’s why many SF writers (and some philosophers) think a society of immortals will stagnate
[22:25] MarieEcho: which can adapt to natural selections
[22:25] Bryce Galbraith: .. but barring that you could conceivably just keep living.. howeve, after a while, people’s earlier memories started to recede. So in practice you only remember a ‘sliding window’ of time in your life.
[22:25] Chraeloos: Violet, right, would a hologram be able to procreate?
[22:25] Bryce Galbraith: I think that’s actually my favorite book of his…
[22:26] Rory Torrance: very true paul
[22:26] Chraeloos: Bryce, interesing
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: hi rory!! nice to meet you
[22:26] AnthonyE Staryk: genetic diversity is what is beneficial, not a drawback as is so often misidentified…Immortality would impact the birth rate as well as the mortality rate…
[22:26] Chraeloos: Paul, yes definitely. Would peole want to live forever?
[22:26] MarieEcho: dawkins has some chapters on why after certain points, the genes throw away the living body, and wants to build a new one from scratch
[22:26] MarieEcho: which means the old ppl die and younger ppl grow form babies again
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: the rich would be the first to benefit and are they the best to be ? hehe
[22:26] Violet: I don’t want to live forever…..I just want to live a really, really, really long time 😛
[22:26] AnthonyE Staryk: immortality could become incredibly detrimental to our long term existence as a species
[22:26] Bryce Galbraith: Actually even now I don’t remember everything anyway — that’s why I have a bunch of notebooks and such.. paper and digital … to serve as my extended memory …
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: how long is forever?
[22:26] Zon Kwan: but what if we have soul that already lives longer than one life
[22:27] Chraeloos: Paul, I agree completely. The tech would only be available to those who ould afford it…and personally I don’t want them around forever lol
[22:27] Chraeloos: Violet, lol!
[22:27] Tricipian Serendipity: human civilization is only about 7k years old
[22:27] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, most people don’t want to live forever, they’d just rather not die
[22:27] MarieEcho: why do ppl want to live long , whats the purpose of living
[22:27] MusE Starsmith: Chrae, the thing about “self” is it’s not ultimately definable. But for me, the totality of my physical experience is/must be intertwined and interdependent with any “mind” I may have.
[22:27] Chraeloos: Bryce, right me too
[22:27] MusE Starsmith: or maybe I’m just out of said mind… lol
[22:27] Violet: haha, that’s a good way to put it, Rhi
[22:27] AnthonyE Staryk: How do you know that’s not the case now Zon. Simply our awareness of such things is not present?
[22:27] Chraeloos: Paul, forever could be after the earth explodes and we’re all floating aroundin our avatars in space wondering what the heck to do now?
[22:27] Zon Kwan: nods
[22:27] Violet: Life is comfortable–it’s where I keep all my stuff 🙂
[22:28] Tricipian Serendipity: and still lagging too chrae hehe lol
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, ditto Violet 🙂
[22:28] Zon Kwan: reincranation means consciosness shift to antoher body
[22:28] Tricipian Serendipity: what is the tier in this extend life idea hehe
[22:28] Rory Torrance: id be happy to go explore the galaxy personally
[22:28] Chraeloos: Muse, agreed. So you wouldn’t want to if you didn’t know 100% what it would turn out as?
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: Hmmm.. actually, I’m not sure I quite agree that immortality would result in stagnation…
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: It might actually be very liberating.
[22:28] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, where’s the fun in that, Muse?
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: You would have time to explore lots of ideas and such.
[22:28] Chraeloos: VIolet, lolol
[22:28] Chraeloos: Paul, lol
[22:28] Violet: I think, if nothing else, immortality would force us to think in longer time scales
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: It might be that immortality really frees humans.
[22:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: There was an Asimov story along similar lines to your idea of our avatars wondering through the galaxies.
[22:29] MusE Starsmith: I’m not saying that, Chrae, as I could never really know, and as Bryce says…it may be an adventure
[22:29] MusE Starsmith: Hello FEndy and Bikeoh
[22:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: And a couple became upset when they missed their bodies
[22:29] Violet: It sometimes seems to me that we don’t really live long enough to develop the way we should.
[22:29] Chraeloos: Bryce, agreed, but who gets to live forever? THis planet isn’t sustainable for this many people
[22:29] Bikejoh: rhiannon, maybe the last question?
[22:29] Chraeloos: Muse, true
[22:29] Chraeloos: Hi Sly 🙂
[22:29] AnthonyE Staryk: I would think that population issues will become more relevant, and humanities desire to reach out to the stars would expand since immortality would allow for an individual to explore far reaches of space and individuals will still be alive when they reach a far out destination.
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — are you thinking of the short story ‘Eyes do More than See’?
[22:29] Violet: Then again, mortality kind of keeps me going in a sense….without it, I might put off living indefinitely.
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: I think that was the title…
[22:29] harmoniasophia Scribe: a hologram wont need food
[22:29] Rory Torrance: yes the human species has so far shown little ability to think even in the long term of one lifetime, a major shift of perspective would be needed…
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/~tolis/toli/other/eyes.html
[22:29] AnthonyE Staryk: Think that was the Foundation septaologu Rhia…
[22:29] DonJuan Writer: there’s a wonderful sci-fi book by John Wyndham called “The Trouble With Lichen” on the life extension subject.. the scientist who held the secret was a woman and she gave it to the young wives of billionaires.. to bring a more feminine touch to the future
[22:30] Chraeloos: Rhia, I think I am familiar with that. HOw are you intimate if you can’t touch?
[22:30] Fendybendy: I think the universe is a circle. Discuss.
[22:30] Bikejoh: universe big
[22:30] Bikejoh: toke
[22:30] Chraeloos: Anthony, I agree
[22:30] Rory Torrance: lol
[22:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, maybe; it was one that was based on a picture of a nude statue sent to him, and other authors, by Playboy. He wrote a story, they rejected it at warp speed, and he sent it to Fantasy and Science Fiction, where a friend was an editor
[22:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: (Or Galaxy)
[22:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: (We’ve managed it, Chrae. ::blushes::)
[22:31] Chraeloos: haha Rhi, mhm
[22:31] Chraeloos: Ok, so what shift would we need to get through living forever?
[22:32] Sonitus Randt: re: intimacy, a movie with a related theme, loss of the physical, is “The Colossus of New York” starring Ross Martin – human brain I think, not just mind, put into robot body – 50s
[22:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: I think most people base their notions of immortality on their physical bodies–and even if their consciousness was transfered to a hologram, they’d feel cheated
[22:32] Chraeloos: What would the implications be on working? On social activities, etc.?
[22:32] Chraeloos: Rhia, probably. I know I would.
[22:32] MusE Starsmith: way back THEN, Sonitus…interesting people have thought about this before SL even
[22:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, I recall seeing that movie on MsT3K I think.
[22:32] Chraeloos: Sonitus, interesting
[22:32] Bryce Galbraith: That’s a good next question there Chrae.. how to adapt to immortality…
[22:32] Bryce Galbraith: For one… you may want to reconsider that life insurance policy…
[22:32] Chraeloos: Bryc,e yeah, if this works, then what?
[22:32] Violet: Since we’re kinda talking about sci-fi….I loved Dennis Danvers’ Bin series, which was sort of about how people end up dealing with immortality through a big SLish virtual world….
[22:32] Rory Torrance: makes me think of “red dwarf” and how frustrated rimmer was when he became a hologram…
[22:32] Chraeloos: Bryce, hahaha
[22:33] AnthonyE Staryk: would it make people be more accountable since they won’t die, eventually their actions will find them or vice versa…
[22:33] Violet: (Or reject it and learn to deal with mortality without it)
[22:33] Tricipian Serendipity: what about the opposite idea ; logans run comes to mind in that
[22:33] Bryce Galbraith: lol! Yeah, indeed Rory… that was a fun series too 🙂
[22:33] Chraeloos: lol guys, Sci fi has dealt with this a bunch
[22:33] MusE Starsmith: “Better than Life” (Red Dwarf episode)
[22:33] Chraeloos: maybe we’d all have to get educated in sci fi
[22:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, I think, from what I’ve been hearing tonight, we all think that people *will* die, just lead a very long life
[22:33] Chraeloos: Anthony, maybe. Do you think so?
[22:33] Bikejoh: rhiannon why are you nakey
[22:34] MusE Starsmith: Oh yes, Logan’s Run! I’d be long dead by now!
[22:34] Chraeloos: Paul, the opposite idea of?
[22:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: We’ve addressed the breakdown of the human mind, problesm with personal identity, the problems to the species with immortality
[22:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: MusE, you’d be regenerated in carnival, don’t you know?
[22:35] AnthonyE Staryk: well…if people truly became immortal, that death was off the table…the concept of karma comes to mind, consequences for ones actions…the world is only so big, there’s only so many places you can hide out or move too
[22:35] Tricipian Serendipity: not all would be able to live foreveer; us plebes would be killed off at 25 say hehe
[22:35] MusE Starsmith: so they tell me…but it would not be MEEEEEE, Rhia lol
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: Can you see some folks being offered an option for radical life extension and saying … ‘no thanks’ ?
[22:35] Chraeloos: Anthony, yeah, if you believe in that. Others might act like teenagers for the rest of their lives
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: Ah, well, there’s that too Tri…
[22:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, I read a SF story where a couple fled the Earth, as the government made immortality compulsory
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: immortality for some…
[22:35] Tricipian Serendipity: they already do chrae hehe
[22:35] Chraeloos: Bryce, yeah me
[22:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: They were on a primitive planet, where’d they live out a natural lifespan
[22:35] Violet: Initially, out of fear, Bryce, yeah….in the longer run, I don’t know. I think most people prefer life to the alternatives.
[22:35] AnthonyE Staryk: they might Chrae, others would surely tire of them…then what?
[22:36] Violet: I’d imagine some people would choose not to extend their lives. There are always some people who do anything 🙂
[22:36] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose the devil is in the details, when it comes to immortality .. what are the conditions?
[22:36] Chraeloos: Violet, I wouldn’t do it out of fear. I just don’t think we should live that long. Our minds and bodies are only meant for so long. the universe has other plans for other species. nothing should exist forever.
[22:36] Tricipian Serendipity: i would want to know at what age you life is extended in
[22:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: musE, which raises the point–aren’t people really saying they want their Egos to be immortal? Not their bodies?
[22:36] AnthonyE Staryk: what if there wasn’t a choice? ㋡ what if the immortality virus got out and infected everyone?
[22:36] Bryce Galbraith: getting to live forever but only as a head in a fishtank doesn’t sound that awesome..
[22:36] Tricipian Serendipity: to live for ever old would not be fun hehe
[22:36] Chraeloos: Anthony, exactly. What do you do then? Shoot them into space with a cannon?
[22:37] MusE Starsmith: exactly, Bryce! and what is the POINT? Isn’t renewing resources (including human creativity) a good thing?
[22:37] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, exactly Tri…
[22:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, exactly; i think we’ve actually decided tonight that death is not only inevitable, but a good thing.
[22:37] Violet: Leonard Nemoy seems to enjoy it, Bryce :p
[22:37] AnthonyE Staryk: maybe Chrae. How do we currently get people to conform to social norms?
[22:37] Chraeloos: Anthony, then we dont have a choice, haha
[22:37] Sonitus Randt: Depends on the state of their sex lives, rhi
[22:37] Bryce Galbraith: lol! Violet 🙂
[22:37] Tricipian Serendipity: extending the natural life span i think is more possible and more practical
[22:37] Tricipian Serendipity: but only again if we improve the conditins of life on earth
[22:37] Bryce GalbraithBryce Galbraith remembers the scene of Leonard Nimoys head being fed fish food…
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, which I think is probably more ego than libido, Anthony
[22:38] XTC: death is not a good thing for those of us with a consciousness
[22:38] Violet: I’m not a fan of death…or aging, disease, entropy in general. I’m all for figuring out how to turn it around…
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Don’t ask me why I put Anthony at the end of that
[22:38] MusE Starsmith: Sonitus, aren’t you cheeky tonight! °͜°
[22:38] Chraeloos: Anthony, some places by death, others by jails, and eventual reentry into society. Or we lock them up in an asylum.
[22:38] Tricipian Serendipity: we all have withiin us the ability to live longer than e do
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Violet, oh, that’s easy–just reverse Time’s Arrow
[22:38] Bryce Galbraith: Now, if I could live forever with a nicely attuned and fully capable human body… that’s a different story…
[22:38] harmoniasophia Scribe: I find it as madness for something that is immortal to contrive ann idea immortality as being something he is not – its like sententcing its self to an everlasting prison
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, but again–would it be you after a while?
[22:38] Chraeloos: XTC< why?
[22:39] Tricipian Serendipity: yes if i could be a hot stud for a few hundred years that would b cool bryce hehe
[22:39] AnthonyE Staryk: or we condition them…or drug them…or control them through economic means…
[22:39] Violet: I’ll have to catch it first, Rhi…it always seems to be just ahead of me 😛
[22:39] Bryce Galbraith: Harmonia — did you mean your first ‘immortal’ to be ‘mortal’ ?
[22:39] Chraeloos: Paul, Bryce, lolol
[22:39] Chraeloos: Rhi, we are always changing based on our experiences, though. Whats the difference?
[22:39] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — even now I’m not the same me that I was 5, 10, 20 years ago ..
[22:40] Chraeloos: Anthony, right, so would that work long term? They’re invincible, after all
[22:40] Bryce Galbraith: and I won’t be the same person in another 5, 10, or 20 years…
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, the difference would be the continuity of memory involved in the experience of the “I”
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: If that continuity isn’t there, then in what sense does the “I” continue?
[22:40] Bryce Galbraith: and that’s cool… the possibility of being able to continually reinvent myself is pretty exciting really.
[22:40] Chraeloos: Rhi, why wouldn’t there be continuity?
[22:40] MusE Starsmith: You can have that hot body forever right here in SL!
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, there is still the continuity of the “I”.
[22:40] AnthonyE Staryk: or maybe Society would have to get more creative with its solutions
[22:40] Chraeloos: lol Muse!
[22:40] Tricipian Serendipity: but we dont know how long they live muse hehe
[22:40] harmoniasophia Scribe: without something already existing then the image of itself could no exist
[22:41] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, Chrae, if we take memory coninuity as the basis of personal identity, after 900 years would there be a straight line of memory from her to me?
[22:41] harmoniasophia Scribe: so yes sort of Bryce
[22:41] Tricipian Serendipity: no one in sl is older than 9 lol; that is not even a human life span yet hehe
[22:41] Violet: If only I could mute my butt when it starts to hurt, Muse…
[22:41] Chraeloos: Harm, can you expand on that please?
[22:41] Chraeloos: Rhi, why not? I already don’t ahve a straight line of memory, and I’m pretty young…ehem…lol
[22:41] MusE Starsmith: lol Violet…trying to imagine muted butt…
[22:41] Chraeloos: Paul, lol true
[22:41] Chraeloos: Violet, lol
[22:41] Rory Torrance: criminy ive never been linear
[22:42] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose if you get tired of living you simply self terminate… if you are digital you can delete yourself…
[22:42] Chraeloos: Rory, me either
[22:42] Chraeloos: Bryce, oh good point. But what if you cant?
[22:42] Chraeloos: who would have control over that?
[22:42] Chraeloos: what if hte power went out?
[22:42] Chraeloos: ohoh
[22:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, but that’s exactly my point. And if tht line gets attenuated over the~centuries~is there continuity of self?
[22:42] Bryce Galbraith: Chrae — another option that effectively achieves the same result sorta — an option to wipe out your memory and start over
[22:42] Chraeloos: Rhia, why not? Are you still the same person if you get alzheimers?
[22:42] harmoniasophia Scribe: the image we identify with is a thought – without an I am to think then thinking would be moot Chrae – thoughts have a source
[22:42] Rory Torrance: id sure like to give it a try and find out
[22:43] Chraeloos: Bryce, yeah maybe. Would that be worth it though?
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, if not memory, what is the line of continuity here?
[22:43] Violet: That’s why you tie a string to your quarters and cheat the suicide booth….just in case 🙂
[22:43] MusE Starsmith: I’d need me a darned good backup generator
[22:43] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — I suspect the ‘self’ would snap at some point 😉
[22:43] AnthonyE Staryk: what of an immortal with MPD? dfoes 900s years suddently become chunks of different “personalities”?
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not your body.
[22:43] Chraeloos: Harm, definitely. LIke in Robert J Sawyers recent series “Wake”
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: If you’ve changed bodies, and you have no memory continuity, then who are you?
[22:43] Rory Torrance: if you dont remember your early childhood, are you the same person you were?
[22:43] Chraeloos: Rhi, exactly. Consciousness? Personality?
[22:43] Bryce Galbraith: It’s no wonder immortality is a rich area for sci-fi 🙂
[22:43] Tricipian Serendipity: yes rory bc something in that still is who we are °͜°
[22:43] Chraeloos: Muse, lolol agreed
[22:44] Rory Torrance: i think so too
[22:44] harmoniasophia Scribe: I havent seen or heard of “Wake”
[22:44] Rory Torrance: even if we dont exactly recall
[22:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, well, we can say it of you, as there is physical continuity. But if now “you’re” a hologram, or in a robotic body, then how do we justify saying that?
[22:44] Bryce Galbraith: I think that’s kind of an interesting concept .. the discontinuity of self…
[22:44] Chraeloos: Rory, exactly.
[22:44] Chraeloos: If I gain a year, I lose one.
[22:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thanks, Bryce
[22:44] MusE Starsmith: there is conscious, recallable memory, and also partially or totally inaccessible memory
[22:44] Bryce Galbraith: Yes, thank you Rhi, I feel like I have a new toy to play with 🙂
[22:44] Violet: Identity hiccups?
[22:44] Tricipian Serendipity: anyone see that movie “in Time” had justin timberlake; time was currency
[22:44] Sonitus Randt: Also, even if you don’t remember childhood, you might retain habitual ways of thinking, behaving
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: that’s a great phrase Violet!
[22:45] Violet: 🙂
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: ‘identity hiccups’
[22:45] AnthonyE Staryk: Total Recall the remake opens on the 10th of August…that alone is a deep exploration of memory and personality…about individual perceptions and “reality”
[22:45] Chraeloos: Harm, its a sci fi series, about a blind girl who gets a mechanical implant that lets her see, and she ends up being able to communicate with an entity that was “born” in the internet, that realizes its conscious
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: I am so keeping a transcript of this discussion…
[22:45] Chraeloos: Violet, lol!
[22:45] Rhiannon of the Birds: Identity hiccoughs? I like that.
[22:45] Tricipian Serendipity: remake is nothing like the original too ant.
[22:45] Violet: Lain!
[22:45] AnthonyE Staryk: I know 😦
[22:46] Tricipian Serendipity: too many remakes in the movies thsi year 😦
[22:46] Chraeloos: Bryce, me too
[22:46] Bryce Galbraith: Lain — now there’s an interesting anime!
[22:46] AnthonyE Staryk: Hollyweird is tapped out for storylines…
[22:46] Chraeloos: Does anyone mind if I stick this on my blog? I can edit out names
[22:46] Tricipian Serendipity: hollyweird hehe °͜°
[22:46] Violet: Sure, Chrae
[22:46] MusE Starsmith: Oh, interesting, Chrae. They were dealing with machine entities in the last few episodes of “Eureka”
[22:46] Chraeloos: lol Paul, Anthony
[22:46] Rory Torrance: no prob
[22:46] AnthonyE Staryk: sure Chrae
[22:46] Bryce Galbraith: I would sort of like it if somebody remade Lain …. but so that it cohered a bit more and made sense. I wonder if that would ‘break’ it though?
[22:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: you can keep my name, Chrae. And sure.
[22:46] MusE Starsmith: ok Chrae, but give us the link, please
[22:46] Chraeloos: Muse, oh cool, I don’t have TV anymore, so I dunno
[22:47] Sonitus Randt: fine with me chrae
[22:47] Chraeloos: Muse, I sure will, can send it through the group
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: i will give my permision with one condition attached chrae °͜°
[22:47] Chraeloos: Paul, yes?
[22:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Just remember, she’s a lady, Paul
[22:47] harmoniasophia Scribe: the world is a place whose purpose is to be a home where those who claim they do not know themselves can come to question what it is they are. And they will come again until they learn it is impossible to doubt yourself, and not to be aware of what you are.
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: you must also put this on our forum °͜°
[22:47] Chraeloos: lolol Rhi
[22:47] Chraeloos: Paul, oh yeah no problem!
[22:47] Violet: I think that’d kinda break it for me, Bryce….but I think the plot is actually really fascinating, once you figure it out enough, so maybe just something separate that followed similar ideas?
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: (looks to muse to post the link for that)
[22:47] Bryce Galbraith: For those of you not familiar, ‘Lain’ is a ref to ‘Serial Experiments Lain’, an anime series from I guess the late 1990s…
[22:47] MusE Starsmith: oh ok…coming up
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: http://www.tricipia.org/community
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: 😛
[22:47] Chraeloos: Harm, interesting. So we are projections of something else?
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: got it
[22:48] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah… I think I agree Violet…
[22:48] Violet: Although the writer/director was working on a sorta-remake/reboot thing set in the 30s, that got cancelled…
[22:48] Chraeloos: Bryce, thanks didn;t know that
[22:48] Violet: If that counts 🙂
[22:48] Chraeloos: OK, so it seems like none of us really want to be immortal…am I wrong?
[22:48] harmoniasophia Scribe: the projection is nothing – we are something else who believe the projection is our self – misdentified – thus dissociated and dislaced
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: Um, I think I’d like to be immortal…
[22:49] harmoniasophia Scribe: displaced
[22:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, most of us are reconciled to not being immortal, let’s put it that way
[22:49] AnthonyE Staryk: There was a book I read years back about AI…the story was “When H.A.R.L.I.E was One” and it’s about an AI that builds G.O.D. (Graphical Omniscient Device) that contains all knowledge of the planet that’s accessible so that it can explore existence and sentience, as the scientist that creates HARLIE is unable to answer many of his deeper questions…
[22:49] Sonitus Randt: don’t know chare, first i need to get a few hundred years under my belt
[22:49] Chraeloos: Harm, ok, I think I can follow that
[22:49] Violet: I’d like to be…I’m just not sure if it’s totally feasible
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: … if really faced with not existing anymore…
[22:49] MusE Starsmith: (Tricipia Forum: http://www.tricipia.org/community/index.php)
[22:49] Chraeloos: Rhi, yeah
[22:49] Sonitus Randt: might be fun, might suck
[22:49] Chraeloos: Anthony, interesting
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: Ah, yeah, I think Rhi put it better… I agree, we’re pretty much doomed to die eventually.
[22:49] Violet: But I like existing. It’s what I’m best at doing!
[22:49] Chraeloos: Sonitus, lol sounds fair, but what if you cant back out afterwards?
[22:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, like V’jer coming home to get from it’s Creator the answer to why it was created.
[22:49] Tricipian Serendipity: joining and visiting the forum is invited to all too btw °͜°
[22:50] Tricipian Serendipity: its sparse but i am sure you can change that °͜°
[22:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: Have you sent that in a NC to us, Paul. I will not remember the website after I leave here.
[22:50] Chraeloos: Paul, we can try!
[22:50] Tricipian Serendipity: i think its on the weekly nc you all get 😛
[22:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’ll be up all night instead thinking, “I’m gonna die; I’m gonna die; I’m gonna die.”
[22:50] Chraeloos: indeed it is
[22:50] Chraeloos: Rhi, aw haha
[22:51] MusE Starsmith: < balks at the thought of having a few hundred years under anyone’s belt, including own…
[22:51] Tricipian Serendipity: yes muse! lol
[22:51] Chraeloos: Muse, well its apparently possible with chinese mediicne….XD and qi gong
[22:51] AnthonyE Staryk: it ends with the gov’t shutting the system down, but by then it’s too late, HARLIE has already spread across the Internet and shows up once to the scientist that created him to let him know he’s still around, but hiding…and leaves it wide open from there….
[22:51] Tricipian Serendipity: the 34 i have had so far has been plenty hehe
[22:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’ve understood a lot of things since being in SL–like reincarnation, as many people I meet in SL think that I’ve been here before in another shape or form
[22:51] Sage Hartmann: I think what would be cooler than immortality would be thte ability to merge and split our identities with others. Then there would still be cross-hybridization in ideas and identities, but also continuity in all our experiences.
[22:51] Chraeloos: Rhi, you have, lolol
[22:51] MusE Starsmith: snicker
[22:52] Chraeloos: Sage, that is really interesting
[22:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, et tu?
[22:52] Violet: I like that, Sage…
[22:52] Chraeloos: Sage, I still don’t think I’d want to. I’m weird, but don’t want to show people how *really* weird I am, lolol
[22:52] MusE Starsmith: trippy, Sage
[22:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sage, now, thjat’s a very interesting tought
[22:52] Violet: …and there was another interesting anime sort of with that concept…Kaiba
[22:52] Chraeloos: Rhi, haha I had to think about that one. 😛 I may be Canadian but I’m not French!
[22:52] AnthonyE Staryk: what if you could transfer your “consciousness” into another body? like in Avatar or some of the other stories out there. that’s another form of immortality, is it not?
[22:52] Chraeloos: Anthony, I think thats this scientists idea
[22:52] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that would work Anthony…
[22:52] Tricipian Serendipity: the mercy chrae hehe
[22:53] Chraeloos: Paul, haha
[22:53] MusE Starsmith: That is a big “if” though, for me, Anthony…
[22:53] AnthonyE Staryk: damn I know the kinda upgrades I would be buckin for LOL
[22:53] Violet: Mm, Muse
[22:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well,in avatar, you were still connected to your original body–until the planet-spirit sent you to another body, anyway
[22:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: Which was supposed to be unusual
[22:53] Tricipian Serendipity: wow….
[22:53] harmoniasophia Scribe: one would be sorely disappointed to merge – if they believe they will discover more variety
[22:53] Chraeloos: So, do you think its worth it to support this guy in his research? Or is it a waste of money?
[22:53] Bryce Galbraith: I kinda like the solution they had in Doctor Who — that is, you ‘regenerate’.. but your personality and body alter quite a bit, but you do have memories of earlier selves..
[22:53] Rory Torrance: i have done a lot of experimenting with cellular automata and i think i agree with wolfram, it strongly suggests a sort of conservation of information in any physical universe, and besides, in an infinite universe all patterns would repeat endlessly anyway, so it may well be that we all have avatars and incarnations scattered throughout space and time… perhaps we are psychically connected to them, experience them in our dreams..
[22:53] Sage Hartmann: Re: merging/splitting, for instance, there might be a couple dozen keypointes in the brain where if we wired up to someone else who was somewhat similar, we could cooperatively navigate memory/identity integration. And then perhaps do a clone of our consciousness if we decided we wanted to specialize.
[22:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, actually, even in an infinite universe or an eternal recurrence, it doesn’t follow that all patterns repeat.
[22:54] Violet: That seems ideal, Bryce….you keep the continuity of self while also keeping the diversity and creativity of new life. Cake and eating it.
[22:54] Rory Torrance: well repeat with variations perhaps like a fractal
[22:54] Chraeloos: Rory, I love the topic of cellular automata. I think its a good possibility
[22:54] Rory Torrance: not repeat exactly
[22:54] Tricipian Serendipity: what if there are only ever a finite number of patersn that can rhi?
[22:54] AnthonyE Staryk: wouldn’t an infinite universe have infinite patterns?
[22:54] harmoniasophia Scribe: no
[22:55] harmoniasophia Scribe: a cicular gives the impression of infinity – but its an illusive deception
[22:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: Paul, I forget who, but a mathematicians showed that there is no necessity to the repeat. It was a nice myth of Nietzche’s, but has no basis in reality
[22:55] AnthonyE Staryk: ummm…then by definition, it’s not infinite….
[22:55] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, indeed Violet … and you can change out actors 😉
[22:55] Tricipian Serendipity: i disagree rhi
[22:55] Violet: lol
[22:55] harmoniasophia Scribe: all patterns are ultimately circles
[22:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Paul, you disagree with me? What a surprise
[22:56] Chraeloos: harm, aren’t we all circles?
[22:56] Rory Torrance: i suspect the universe contains all possible variations but who knows
[22:56] Chraeloos: lol Rhi
[22:56] MusE Starsmith: spiral within circle gets my vote lol
[22:56] Chraeloos: ouzozo or whatever its called lol
[22:56] harmoniasophia Scribe: the projection is circular Xhrae – our real self is not
[22:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, it’s just not a necessity that it does.
[22:56] Tricipian Serendipity: yes no maybe is the going to have to be the cooomon dynamic
[22:56] MusE Starsmith: Rhia lol, it just NEVER happens!
[22:56] harmoniasophia Scribe: Chrae
[22:56] Chraeloos: Harm, why not?
[22:56] Violet: I suspect the universe has less idea of what it’s doing than I do, really
[22:56] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, I agree Violet…
[22:56] Tricipian Serendipity: no reality i think can exist
[22:56] Violet: And I’m just winging it 🙂
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: probably the shape of the universe is a corkscrew 😉
[22:57] Rory Torrance: i do think its a spiral
[22:57] MusE Starsmith: in that case, Bryce, who’s bringing the wine?
[22:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, you saying the universe is just some being’s way of removing the cork from His champagne?
[22:57] AnthonyE Staryk: how ironic, we finite beings with finite minds, wax about infinity….a paradox….
[22:57] Tricipian Serendipity: without these 3 core “principles”
[22:57] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds locks eyes with MusE
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: I’d be happy to MusE 🙂
[22:57] Chraeloos: Mmm, Wine hahaha
[22:57] harmoniasophia Scribe: creation expands – it procreates – patterns recreate – they are stuck in a circle
[22:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, you sure you aren’t French?
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: Yes Rhi — at least I sincerely hope so!
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: Actually, as a ‘Purpose’ of the universe goes, that one actually makes me happiest 🙂
[22:58] Chraeloos: Rhi, nope. A bit German, Flemish even, British, but thats about it as far as I know.
[22:58] Chraeloos: hahaha
[22:58] Bryce Galbraith: The Purpose of the Universe is open a grand bottle of Champagne!
[22:58] Violet: 🙂 that’s pretty Vonnegutian, I think, Bryce
[22:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, back to your question, Chrae; I think, like all research, it should be funded by those who believe in it
[22:58] Violet: I like it
[22:58] MusE Starsmith: ok! we have a bar that has wine above the gallery currently showing the work of Rory (cue shameless promotion)
[22:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: And not by those who don’t
[22:58] Tricipian Serendipity: i dont see it as a paradox ant.
[22:58] Bryce Galbraith: Thank you Violet… I wasn’t even trying that time either 😉
[22:58] Violet: 🙂
[22:58] Rory Torrance: lol
[22:58] Rory Torrance: thanks muse
[22:58] Chraeloos: Muse, haha great!
[22:58] MusE Starsmith: 😉
[22:58] Chraeloos: I know where I’ll be, hahaha
[22:59] MusE Starsmith: Vonnegutian, my new favorite term!
[22:59] Chraeloos: Ok guys, thats the hour! Thanks so much for coming! Great ideas! If you would like to see more events like this please leave a donation in the bowl between Violet and Sonitus, in the back. Have a great night everyone!
[22:59] Chraeloos: See you all next week, same time, same place 🙂
[22:59] AnthonyE Staryk: be well everyone
[22:59] Violet: Thanks, Chrae, g’night 🙂
[22:59] Chraeloos: lol Muse
[22:59] Rory Torrance: a pleasure
[22:59] MusE Starsmith: Chrae! wow, thanks! ’twas a fast hour!
[23:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: nite, Violet
[23:00] Tricipian Serendipity: ty for hosting chrae ; good topic good turn out °͜°
[23:00] Chraeloos: Sure was!
[23:00] harmoniasophia Scribe: how can one speak of what one does not know – if one does not know it?
[23:00] Sonitus Randt: thanks for hosting chare, enjoyed this a lot
[23:00] Chraeloos: Great Turnout!
[23:00] TC Discussion Deck: Another great tip donated! Thank you for your support!!
[23:00] TC Discussion Deck: The tip jar is located in the back 🙂 donations appreciated 🙂 🙂
[23:00] Rory Torrance: good ol vonnegut
[23:00] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Sonitus, vVi, everyone
[23:00] Chraeloos: Harm, you speak of it now
[23:00] AnthonyE Staryk: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/sight-chilling-futuristic-film-made-graduation-project-goes-012502110.html?_esi=0&ugccmtnav=v1/comments/context/e34c1278-efff-34d2-ada9-ff8420eb4879/comments?count=20&sortBy=mostReplied
[23:00] Bryce Galbraith: thank you for hosting Chrae!
[23:00] Chraeloos: Thank you Bryce!

Life Energy Around the World


Qi is a very important concept in Chinese medicine. As it turns out, it’s a very important concept all over the world! The following is an excerpt from “The Way of Qigong” by Kenneth S. Cohen.

Invisible life energy is a universal concept and is most commonly associated with breath, heat, air, and/or sunlight. Evidence of a shared, perennial philosophy of health can be found among all ancient cultures.

God breathes the “breath of life” (ruach) into Earth to create the first human. The Hebrew name “Adam” ids rived from the same root as Adama, Earth. The Breath of God (Ruach Ha Kodesh in Hebrew, Spiritus Sancti in Latin) is synonymous with the power of Spirit. A similar idea is expressed in the holy scripture of Islan, the Qur’an (Koran). The words nafas, meaning Allah’s own breath, and ruh, meaning Allah’s own soul, “are used to mean the human breath and human soul – confirming the fact that we are originally from Allah, of Allah, for allah, and in the end will return to Allah.” Shaykh Hakim Moinuddin Chishti says that “breath” is not the same as air or oxygen. Rather is is a divine energy that regulates human emotions and the equilibrium of the body. “Both the quantity and quality of breath have a definite and direct effect upon human health.”

In Greek, the vital breath is called pneuma, a word first used by the philosopher Anaximenes (ca. 545 BC). Anaximenes said that life begins with the breath. All things come from it and dissolve into it at death. The soul is breath and is that which controls and “holds together” (prevents the disintegration or decomposition of) human beings. As air or wing, it encloses and maintains the world. Cambridge University professors G.S. Kirk and J.E. Raven in their work The Presocratic Philosophers, label a section of Anaximenes’ writings “The Comparison Between Cosmic Air and the Breath-Soul,” ideas that are remarkably parallel to the Chinese words Yuan Qi, “Cosmic or Original Qi,” and hun, “breath soul.” Vital breath creates a unity between microcosm and macrocosm. In Kirk and Raven’s translation, “The life-principle and motive force of man is, traditionally, pneuma or the breath-soul; (pneuma is seen in the outside world, as wind) therefore the life-principle of the outside world is pneuma; (therefore wind, breath, or air is the life and substance of all things).”

Hippocrates (460-377 BC) considered the founder of medical science, believed that the forces of life, like qi, must flow. When chymos, the body’s fluids – principally blood, bile, and phlegm – are in harmony, one is healthy. In The Nature of Man, he writes, “A man enjoys the most perfect health when these elements are duly proportioned to one another in power, bulk, and manner of compounding, so that they are mingled as excellently as possible. Pain is felt when one of these elements is either deficient or excessive…” When a component of health is isolated and out of balance with the other elements, in excess in certain places and absent form others, the result is pain and illness. According to Hippocrates, balance is the natural state. The role of a physician is “not to manipulate the patient as one would handle something inanimate, but to remove, both from within and from outside the patient’s body, obstructions to healthy recovery.”

Among the Kung San, the indigenous people of Africa’s Kalahan Desert, life energy is num. The num is stored in the lower abdomen and at the base of the spine and can be made to “boil” through ecstatic dance. In Boiling Energy, by Harvard lecturer Richard Katz, an elderly healer explains, “The num enters every part of your body, right to the tip of your feet and even your hair.” Num makes the spine tingle and the mind empty, without thoughts. The healer of healers “see people properly, just as they are.” At this point int he dance, the healers can project healing num or pull sickness form those who are ill. Shamans, num kausi, the “masters or owners of the num,” might help a student enter the proper state of transcendent consciousness (kia) by “shooting” arrows of num into the student’s body, often by snapping the fingers. (Some Native American healers project energy in a similar way, by slapping the palms together.) LIke modern physicians, the Kung believe that people carry illness within the body. When disease flares up, it can sometimes be cured by accumulating num, increasing the inner reserve of healing power. The Kung are also willing to use modern antibiotics. No treatment is 100 percent effective. As healer Gau says, “Maybe our num and European medicine are similar, because sometimes people who get European medicines die, and sometimes they live. That is the same with ours.”

Some fifty or sixty thousand years ago, long before the Chinese spoke of qi, Australian aborigines were cultivating life energy as a key to healing and spiritual power. According to my friend, ruin Tribe elder and medicine man Gaboo, “People who had this energy could communicate telepathically across vast distances. They formed the aboriginal telephone line.” In Voices of the First Day, a classic of aboriginal spirituality, author Robert Lawlor notes that, like the Chinese, the aborigines concentrated on an energy centre four inches below the navel, “where they said the cord of the great Rainbow Serpent (kundalini) lay coiled. Through the same centre the Aborigines drew body heat from the ‘rainbow fires’ that helped them endure cold.” Aborigines, like other indigenous tribes, believe that people today have less of this life energy than in the past. Because life energy is the common source and link between people and nature, the loss of it parallels the loss of connection between human beings and their relations: the plants, animals, stones, water, sky, the earth, and all of creation. Restoring life energy to its original condition of fullness may be the key to recovering lost potentials and realizing that”the Kingdom of Heaven is in our midst.”

Native American tribes also recognize the existence of a subtle healing energy. The Navajo say that the Winds (nilch’i) gave life to human beings and all of nature. THus, James Kale McNeley, Ph.D., a teacher at the Navajo Community College, speaks of the “Holy Wind” in his Holy Wind in Navajo Philosophy. As the Winds swirled through the human being, they left their mark as lines on fingers and toes. The Winds are also sacred powers, sources of healing guidance. They are considered messengers of God or the Great Spirit. When Native Americans pray to the “Winds of the Four Directions,” they become intuitively aware of solutions to life problems. According to one Navajo elder, if the Winds’ guidance is not followed, if one refuses to follow God’s instructions, “…our Holy One takes out the Wind that was within us. He stops our heart.” In SiSiWiss, “Sacred Breath,” an indigenous healing tradition from the PUget Sound region of Washington State, healers project power to their patients through dance, song, and laying on of hands. Some SiSiWiss chants include specific breathing methods to either drive away disease or invite helping and healing spirits.

IN the Lakota (Sioux) language, the word for soul, woniya, is derived from the word for breath, ni. In 1896, the Lakota holy man, Long KNift (George Sword), told physician James R. Walker, “A man’s ni is his life. It is the same as his breath. It gives him his strength. All that is inside a man’s body it keeps clean. If it is weak it cannot clean the inside of the body. If it goes away from a man he is dead…” The Lakota sweat lodge healing rite is called inipi because it purifies the ni. “Inipi causes a man’s ni to put out of his body all that makes him tired, or all that causes disease, or all that causes him to think wrong…”

IN Hawaii, the most powerful healers are known as Kahuna Ha, “Masters of the Breath.” The sacred healing breath, ha, can be absorbed at power places in nature (heiau), through dance (such as the hula), and deep breathing exercises. Some Kahunas learn how to store healing energy in the heart. Then, when the healing energy is projected through laying on of hands, the ha is coloured by the healer’s love and positive thoughts. In traditional Hawaiian counselling and mediation, all parties in a conflict first calm their minds by breathing deeply. This helps them to be less reactive and to find a better solution. The ha can also be transferred from a healer to a patient by blowing directly on the patient’s body. When a Kahuna Ha is near death, he/she may transfer lineage and power by breathing the ha onto a student or family member. The Hawaiian word Aloha, often used as a respectful, heartfelt greeting, also means “love.” Love is the “meeting face-to-face” (alo) of the breath of life (ha).

Of course the closest parallels to qi are found in Asian countries, particularly India. In India, the life energy, prana, is described as flowing through thousands of subtle-energy veins, the nadis. one of the goals of Yoga is to accumulate more prana through breath control exercises (pranayama) and physical postures (asana). THe student is also taught to conserve prana, and not to waste either his inborn, genetic store or that acquired through meditation. Some yogis believe that we are given a certain number of breaths at birth. If we learn to breathe more slowly, we use up our endowment at a slower pace and thus live longer.

There are remarkable parallels between Yoga and Chinese yin-yang theory, the philosophy that health is a balance of complementary opposites: fire and water, mind and body, self and nature. Hatha Yoga balances the solar (Ha) and lunar (the) currents of life energy. By reversing the courses of the two pranic breaths, one fire-like, one water-like, longevity is assured. Fire is made to descend, water to ascend, thus unifying mind (fire) and body (water) and preventing the dispersal of life energy.

 

TCM Series Intro Notes: Chinese Methodology


(c) 2012, Chraeloos Resident
Welcome everyone to the Traditional Oriental Medicine series. Thank you for coming! Please tip if you feel so inclined. All tips are split between the venue and myself in order to keep these events going and to enable the growth of the sim. The tip jar is one of the candles on the table. If you’d like a copy of today’s notes you can find them in another candle on the table.

Thank you for visiting Peaceful Dragon Oriental Medicine Centre! The centre is currently under construction, but is intended to be an Oriental medicine learning centre. If you have a suggestion for an activity or an event here, please contact either Xandria Winterwolf or myself.

I just want to remind everyone that none of the information presented here is advice and therefore should not be put into practice without first consulting a professional.

Today we will focus on CM Methodology.

The main sources used today are: http://www.tcmworld.org/what_is_tcm/, “The Way of Qigong” by Kenneth S. Cohen, “Traditional Chinese Medicine” by Daniel Reid, “Natural Healing Wisdom and Know-how” compiled by Amy Rost, http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/chinese/what_is_qi, http://www.sacredlotus.com/theory/substances/qi_forms.cfm, “Essentials of Chinese Medicine, Vol. 1” edited by Zhanwen Liu and Liang Liu, “Secrets of Dragon Gate” by Dr. Steven Liu and Jonathan Blank.

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Today we are going to begin with something a little different. We’re going to start with a short exercise. I’d like you all to take a few minutes and do this with me.

You can do this standing or sitting, whatever is more comfortable for you. Straighten your spine – pretend as though there is a string someone has attached to it with a rod and is pulling up from the top of your spine. Make it tall and straight. Next, relax your joints. Let your shoulders relax, your elbows, wrists, hips, knees, ankles, everything; just let it all relax. Now, breathe deeply, bring the breath all the way through your body. Fill your meridians with the air, all the way to your toes and finger tips. Stay like this for a few minutes, breathing deeply and steadily, and try to clear your mind. Listen to the music stream if you want something to focus on. Just sit or stand and breathe, joints relaxed, and spine straight.

Pause for three minutes.

Now we will start.

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“Disease is the process in which an evil Qi causes an illness and the genuine Qi of the body fights off the disease-causing agent. In this process, the unity within the body and the unity of the body and its environment mean that there are continuous interactions. It is only when the body’s genuine Qi is too weak to resist the evil Qi or the intensity of the evil Qi exceeds the genuine Qi’s ability to resist that illness occurs. This struggle of genuine Qi and evil Qi persists from the moment of attack through treatment. It continues until the body’s genuine Qi has gained sufficient strength to overpower the evil Qi.”

The struggle of the genuine Qi and the evil Qi directly affect the course of the illness, as well as the treatment.

“Huangdi’s Internal Classic” tells us that in order to be an excellent physician, one must have a very wide knowledge base including, but not limited to, “astronomy for phenomena above us, geography for phenomena beneath us, and the social sciences for events among us.” This is because they recognized the influence the entire world and our social, economic, and physical environment have on our health.

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Chinese medicine uses a few approaches to treat patients. Firstly, they use the holistic systemic method, which utilizes the Five Elements theory to divide the “vital activities of the human body into five functional systems and which then links all the phenomena of the universe into these systems. Thus, the human body is not merely an isolated whole, but is part of a much larger ecosystem.” This method also utilizes yin-yang theory, separating everything into opposites.

The second approach is a classification by analogy, where things that are similar in properties or appearance are assigned to the same classification category. This helps the doctor to figure out a diagnosis. For example, the flow of the blood in the veins can be compared to the flow of water in a river. When water is chilled it freezes, and when heated it boils. Blood should therefore have similar characteristics. This provides a clear explanation for the symptoms of illnesses of Cold and of Heat. This method has its limit, as it works on probability, not fact. All the actions taken here are corroborated by experience. It is also within this method that herbs are classified according to their properties.

The third approach is to infer the interior from the exterior, or, to observe the outward appearances in order to infer the changes inside the body. Chinese medicine believes that the five zang organs (heart, liver, lung, spleen and kidney) and the six fu organs (stomach, small intestine, large intestine, gall bladder, urinary bladder and san jiao) are closely linked to the organs and tissues on the bodies surface (five sense organs, four limbs and the head, and the nine orifices). The internal and external are linked mainly by means of the meridians and the activities of Qi and blood. The signs a practitioner will look for are the five facial colours, the changes in the tongue, the profiles of the pulse, the appearance of the ear, among many more. Every sign they see will help narrow down the diagnosis and treatment. A fuzzy, yellow tongue with a flushed complexion means something different than a fuzzy, yellow tongue with a red complexion.

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Illnesses will have certain symptoms depending on the stage of its course. For instance, peptic ulcer disease may be diagnosed with a) deficiency-Cold of the spleen and the stomach, b) excessive liver-Qi attacking the stomach, c) accumulation of Dampnesss-Heat in the stomach, or something else. Throughout these different stages different treatments need to be applied. Because of these stages, many illnesses may be treated the same way; for instance, chronic lumbago, edema, diarrhea and enuresis all have a deficiency of spleen-Yang and kidney-Yang, and therefore can all be treated by the method of warm tonification of spleen-Yang and kidney-Yang. Different herbs may be used based on the other symptoms the patient shows, but the purpose of the herbs is the same.

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“Quiescence is the opposite of activity. It includes serenity (absence of stress) of the mind and quietness of the body, and occupies an important role in the CM theory of health preservation.” Much of the typical Chinese exercises include little action, and instead focus on inaction, or even a slow movement between postures. For instance, certain aspects of Qi Gong do not involve any movement of the limbs or trunk, where others involve constant movement. “By assuming certain well-defined postures and engaging in specified breathing techniques and meditative exercises, the person can carry out self-training and self-regulation and attain the goal of regulating, restoring and improving the body.” Of course, you don’t want to do all activity or all quiescence, as any excess or insufficiency is not good for your body. As I usually say – everything in moderation! In other words, those guys that walk around like brick walls with huge muscles and spend four hours a day at the gym, actually aren’t healthy. They are harming their bodies by weakening their genuine qi, by excess of ‘active’ and absence of quiescence, and will deteriorate quicker. They will have harder times fighting illness and recovering from injuries than people who balance their activities and quiescence.

The Chinese emphasize the importance of preventative medicine. In order to stay healthy, both your body and your mind need to be maintained. The idea is to facilitate the movement of Qi and blood to avoid stiffness of the joints, and to ensure there is no stagnation of the meridians or organ systems. the key to promote and preserve genuine Qi is to practice physical training, have a proper diet, regulate mental activities and establish a science-based lifestyle.

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The human body is obviously very complex. It is composed mostly of the zang and fu viscera, the non-organ structures, the sense organs and orifices, the material bases of vital activities (essence, Qi, blood, body fluids, etc.) and there meridians. “Knowledge of the structure and functions of the body systems in CM has been obtained through observation of the manifestations of many physiological functions and pathological phenomena in the body. As this knowledge accumulated, it was taken a step further and became formulated as the visceral manifestation theory. The foundation established by this theory comprises principally the following three aspects:”

1. Ancient Anatomical Knowledge. As early as the eras of Spring-Autumn and the Warring States there are already descriptions of findings from the dissection and research of the human body such as circulation of blood, describing not only the formation of blood but its nature, functions, source that powers its circulation, internal organs it flows through, and its rate of flow.

2. Long-Term Observation of Physiological and Pathological Phenomena. Through the approach of “inferring the interior from the exterior” the ancient people figured out the physical and pathological patterns and rules of the human body. For instance, when the skin was chilled the common cold could develop easily and manifest such symptoms as nasal discharge, cough, and the absence of sweating. From this observation they inferred the relationship of the nose and skin to the lung. Or, in other words, the “lung has its orifice in the nose” and the “lung governs the skin”.

3. Summarization of Practical Experience. Not all connections between the body are outwardly obvious. Through practice and experience they were able to figure out some odd connections. For example, Many types of eye disorders could be cured by techniques that treated the liver. Based on that, they gradually formulated the theory that “the liver has its orifice in the eyes.”

The Visceral Manifestation theory includes the five zang organs (heart, lung, spleen, liver, kidney), the six fu organs (gallbladder, stomach, small intestine, large intestine, urinary bladder, sanjiao), and the five irregular organs (brain, bone marrow, bones, blood vessels, uterus).

The zang viscera share two main functional characteristics: the mental activities, ie. “the heart houses the mind,” “the lung houses the soul,” “the spleen houses intention,” “the liver houses the ethereal soul,” and “the kidney houses the will.” The second is that they house essence and Qi.

The fu viscera share the functional characteristics of receiving, digesting, and transforming food and drink.

“The five sang viscera house the essence and Qi but do not discharge it; thus they are full but cannot be filled up. The sic fu viscera transform and digest matter but do not store it; thus they are filled, yet are not full.” – Plain Questions

We must realize that although the names of the organs are the same as modern western medicine, their physiology and pathology are quite different. “In the theory of visceral manifestation of CM the functions of a particular zang organ can encompass the functions of several organs of modern anatomy; and the functions of a particular organ in modern anatomy may be attributed to several zang and fu organs.” For example, the functions of the heart in CM include the nervous system, as well as the functions attributed in modern anatomy.

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There are many practices to induce good health, including qi gong, tai chi, meditation, etc. Leaning against the piano, I’ve got a chart for you all with 24 basic tai chi moves. We began with a qi gong exercise that you can feel free to do whenever you like. And now, I’m going to end the notes with a qi breathing exercise.

The following is a basic breathing exercise:

Find a comfortable place to lie down or sit. Make sure that there are no major distractions such as noise, weather, etc. Make sure that you have nothing binding on your body, so remove your shoes and if you are wearing a belt, undo it (it’s also a good idea to loosen your pants or skirt). Allow your body to relax completely. It is often helpful to think of yourself floating down a stream. Inhale slowly, steadily and deeply to your abdomen, focusing on your navel. As you inhale relax your entire body and especially your abdomen to allow your lungs to expand to their full capacity. Exhale slowly and steadily, making sure to completely empty all the air in your lungs. Now, slowly fill your lungs again and expand them to their full capacity. And breathe out slowly, emptying all the air in your lungs. Repeat this as many times as you like.

If you have some water nearby go drink some in order to help ground yourself once you have stopped the practice.

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I want you all to experience the benefits of Chinese practices. If you practice these exercises even three times a week you will quickly start to feel better. Personally, I work at an office so I sit at a desk all day. I find if I practice breathing deeply and sitting straight while relaxing my joints I don’t get stiff by the end of the day. You can do these practices anywhere, any time.

As a discussion point, and to finish us off, what do you think is meant by this quote?

“Yin-yang and the seasons are the beginning and end of all things.” – Plain Questions