Shay Ellison’s Stardust Discussion Transcript July 29 2012

Below is a copy of the transcript from Shay Ellison’s discussion last Sunday at Tricipian Center. She did such a great job and so many great things were said I couldn’t help but ask her to post this here. Great job everyone! And especially a great job to Shay!

[2012/07/29 12:10] Shay Ellison: you all have seen a diagram of our solar system before.
[2012/07/29 12:10] MusE Starsmith: Hi Sonitus!
[2012/07/29 12:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, he’s just breathing hard
[2012/07/29 12:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, I *did* not just say that
[2012/07/29 12:10] MusE Starsmith: Rhia!!!!
[2012/07/29 12:11] Sonitus Randt: hi
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: 8 or 9 planets, depending on whether you still heart pluto as one of our circle πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: I want you to picture it in your mind
[2012/07/29 12:11] Seren (serendipity.seraph): or Eris
[2012/07/29 12:11] Tricipian Serendipity: OK LETS all show our host some politness and refreain from chatting after the lecture °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: now, scale back 10 times
[2012/07/29 12:11] Tricipian Serendipity: we have trained hosts to take care of and make strays feel welcome °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:11] Shay Ellison: then put a big smoky smudge in that space. our solar system will be sitting in a small corner of that.
[2012/07/29 12:12] Shay Ellison: it’s a big gas nebula, a cloud of hydrogen, where all stars begin from in some way.
[2012/07/29 12:12] Shay Ellison: as gravity compresses that hydrogen together, it gets so hot that nuclear atom smashing happens. that’s the jump start of all stars.
[2012/07/29 12:13] Shay Ellison: and this star? it’s bleepin huge! several times greater than our sun, probably burning with a hotter color.
[2012/07/29 12:13] Shay Ellison: it also did not last as long as our sun is expected to. another 4 billion years by astronomers observations of other parts of the galaxy
[2012/07/29 12:13] Shay Ellison: this freakin huge star will only last a fraction of that time, and when it’s life is up, it won’t just dissapate with the solar wind. it will explode. violently.
[2012/07/29 12:14] Tuppence Aubin: Hi Zymony
[2012/07/29 12:14] Shay Ellison: the amount of energy released is so intense, it will outshine an entire galaxy! a supernova explosion.
[2012/07/29 12:14] Shay Ellison: but moments before that event, the star has run out of hydrogen to burn and smash together into helium, which is how stars keep burning for many many years
[2012/07/29 12:15] Shay Ellison: once that hydrogen is gone, it has to keep burning SOMEthing, so it starts to canibalize the helium, creating lithium an other elements from that.
[2012/07/29 12:15] Shay Ellison: this is what populates our periodic table, stars near death that create heavier and larger atoms, right up until it starts making iron.
[2012/07/29 12:16] Shay Ellison: ever wondered what it takes to destroy a star? it’s in your frying pan. yes, ordinary iron πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:16] Shay Ellison: Iron is designed to take in more energy than it can give out. as the iron robs the star of that energy needed to keep burning, it almost implodes on itself, then shatters outward, sending all those heavier elements out into the cosmos
[2012/07/29 12:17] Shay Ellison: in that moment of the supernova explosion, the amount of energy is enough to fuse the iron together with other elements, making our heavier ones like gold and platinum
[2012/07/29 12:17] Shay Ellison: that is why those elements are so rare πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:17] Shay Ellison: and that could be the end of it, but not all hydrogen in that original star has been removed!
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: enough forms to create a new, albeit smaller star
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: but we don’t have just hydrogen anymore, the elements made from that original star are also around
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: eventually they orbit the star’s immense gravity, small pebbles combining, then boulders
[2012/07/29 12:18] Shay Ellison: until eventually you have planets that will cool.
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: that is how the inner planets from mercury to mars were born.
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: including earth
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: still with me everyone?
[2012/07/29 12:19] Tricipian Serendipity: yes ; doing great! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:19] Arabella Eyre (nitewater): Very clear
[2012/07/29 12:19] MusE Starsmith: so far!
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: creation of a star, destruction, then birth of a new star
[2012/07/29 12:19] Lulu Lacrima sits alertly
[2012/07/29 12:19] Bryce Galbraith: yep, still here πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:19] Shay Ellison: there are many ancient religions that revere our sun, it provides so much for us, helps sustain our existence
[2012/07/29 12:20] Shay Ellison: I won’t say how long the idea of a god for everything was, but back then, earth WAS everything we knew, as telescopes weren’t invented yet.
[2012/07/29 12:20] Shay Ellison: but we are, stardust.
[2012/07/29 12:20] RevRob Beerbaum: i feel it no coincidence of poetry that attraction is the main fuel of our sustenance
[2012/07/29 12:20] Shay Ellison: we are the successors to that giant gas cloud that gave birth to our entire solar system
[2012/07/29 12:21] Lulu Lacrima whispers re-hi Rhi
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: a gas cloud that may be 10 times, 50 times greater than our solar system. the cosmic distances are immense!
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: yet at the same time, we share a connection with the other planets, the asteroids, the moons, all being birthed from the same star!
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: in some ways, this connection is even more personal than our theistic religions
[2012/07/29 12:21] Shay Ellison: we are, stardust.
[2012/07/29 12:22] Shay Ellison: so, knowing what you do now, I”m sure each of you may find some takeaway from it. spiritual or secular
[2012/07/29 12:22] Shay Ellison: I now open the floor for you to share your thoughts with everyone.
[2012/07/29 12:22] Dom Lunasea nicely expressed
[2012/07/29 12:22] Chraeloos: Rev, I agree that its very poetic
[2012/07/29 12:23] Chraeloos: Well done Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:23] Tricipian Serendipity: first i wqant to say ty for “christening” this venue and great intro! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:23] MusE Starsmith: Shay, that was wonderfully expressed!
[2012/07/29 12:23] Shay Ellison: focusing on a connection that links us to the cosmos, which may even trancend our theistic religions πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:23] RevRob Beerbaum: yes, thank you Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:23] Lulu Lacrima: I think Cosmos is appropriate, because you reminded me of Carl Sagan, who would agree that we are all made of “starstuff”
[2012/07/29 12:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Could you repeat it, Shay? I crashed. lol
[2012/07/29 12:23] Tricipian Serendipity: this is a very inclusive approach to understanding our being
[2012/07/29 12:23] Tuppence Aubin: yes
[2012/07/29 12:23] Shay Ellison: lol, everyone gets one Rhia πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:24] Shay Ellison: but I’ll past the chat log for you πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks.
[2012/07/29 12:24] Dom Lunasea: Philip Stewert’s Chemical Galaxy ; a re-imaging of the periodic table :
[2012/07/29 12:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The phrase “We are starstuff” was Sagan’s
[2012/07/29 12:24] RevRob Beerbaum: i think the idea of the causality chain eg. “we are all stardust” might miss something though. the same thing that can become stars, is the same thing that is us
[2012/07/29 12:24] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, I can’t help but be reminded of Cosmos too…
[2012/07/29 12:24] Tricipian Serendipity: for many of the reasons you said too
[2012/07/29 12:24] Lulu Lacrima: yes, Rhia, that’s why I chose to use quotation marks
[2012/07/29 12:25] Chraeloos nods at Bryce
[2012/07/29 12:25] RevRob Beerbaum: Pale Blue Dot – a fav
[2012/07/29 12:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, we are made of the same thing as stars; but there’s a causal chain–I think, spiritually, though, there is an idea of oneness with the universe that has to be plugged in
[2012/07/29 12:25] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, do you speak perhaps of The Force?
[2012/07/29 12:25] MusE Starsmith: I have learned I resemble a fry pan. Seriously, though, the connections here are astounding to contemplate
[2012/07/29 12:25] Tricipian Serendipity: right rhi; and tha makes everthing around us a point for attachement
[2012/07/29 12:26] Shay Ellison: I find, that our connection to the stars allows us to hold similar beliefs, that while they all could differ greatly, we would still share a belief of this connection with the rest of the universe.
[2012/07/29 12:26] Chraeloos: Thanks Dom, that was interesting!
[2012/07/29 12:26] Sonitus Randt: muse lol
[2012/07/29 12:26] Chraeloos: Muse, lol!
[2012/07/29 12:26] Shay Ellison: and there’s something more inclusive about that as well
[2012/07/29 12:26] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely! I mainly meant that our Sun wasn’t “first”, we all conglomerated and played our roles to end up here, at the same “time”
[2012/07/29 12:26] MusE Starsmith: I like “sense of oneness” Rhia
[2012/07/29 12:27] Tuppence Aubin: Yes so did I
[2012/07/29 12:27] Chraeloos: Agreed Muse, Rhi that was a good one
[2012/07/29 12:27] Tricipian Serendipity: very good point rev; we dont realize we are second players to this part of the galaxy
[2012/07/29 12:27] Chraeloos: Paul, “second players”?
[2012/07/29 12:27] MusE Starsmith: in age, you mean, Rev; Paul?
[2012/07/29 12:27] Shay Ellison: why first or second? why not, a continuation? πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tricipian Serendipity: as shay pointed out in her intro; the sun was born too
[2012/07/29 12:28] MusE Starsmith: an expansion, perhaps
[2012/07/29 12:28] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, the Force? Well, I do think that there is an energy field that surrounds all life and allows us to do what some would call “extrasensory” things.
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tricipian Serendipity: before we came along there was a death for our solar systems birth
[2012/07/29 12:28] Shay Ellison: wish I could do telekenisis πŸ˜€
[2012/07/29 12:28] RevRob Beerbaum: yes, Tricipian! we seem to be in a way, siblings
[2012/07/29 12:28] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, musE, Chrae, Tri
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tuppence Aubin: yes
[2012/07/29 12:28] Chraeloos: I’m trying to think what this connection means to me. I guess its both spiritual and seculuar – scientific as we are made of it, but spiritual because it kind of makes us feel like a community, I think.
[2012/07/29 12:28] Tricipian Serendipity: continuation it might be; but its a process in evolution too
[2012/07/29 12:29] Lulu Lacrima: “There is a thing confusedly formed/Born before Heaven and Earth/Silent and void/It stands alone and does not change/Goes round and does not weary./It is capable of being the mother of the world./I know not its name/So I style it “The Way”/I give it the makeshift name of “the Great”/Being great, it is further described as receding/Receding, it is described as far away/Being far away, it is described as turning back
[2012/07/29 12:29] MusE Starsmith: Process, right. I always like that word.
[2012/07/29 12:29] RevRob Beerbaum: i like that, Chraeloos: community
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Reminds me of Taoism “vital energy” – we are all made of the same stuff
[2012/07/29 12:29] Arabella Eyre (nitewater) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:29] MusE Starsmith: Lulu! wow
[2012/07/29 12:29] Lulu Lacrima: “Lao-tse” as quoted in Cosmos (C. Sagan)
[2012/07/29 12:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Chrae, right, I think the Taoists were onto something
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Rev, thanks, me too
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Lulu, mhm
[2012/07/29 12:29] Chraeloos: Rhi, definitely
[2012/07/29 12:30] Shay Ellison: and if you want to take an earth day take on it, we are all recycled stuff too
[2012/07/29 12:30] Tricipian Serendipity: this understanding tho really drives that we are all made of the same stuff home °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: So, its both spiritual and secular for me
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: Shay, lol thats great!
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: Paul, sure does
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: its kind of neat to think about
[2012/07/29 12:30] Shay Ellison: the laws of physics knows how to recycle better than we do! heehee
[2012/07/29 12:30] Dom Lunasea: not just the same stuff – but the same proportions ; (except helium) in our bodies
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: maybe we are made of stars and black holes like Dr. Manjir Samanta Loughton says in their book “Punk Science”
[2012/07/29 12:30] Tuppence Aubin: Yes, I would say spiritual and secular really describes it
[2012/07/29 12:30] Chraeloos: Shay, lol
[2012/07/29 12:31] Tricipian Serendipity: this is very spritually to me and its secular bc it is an understanding of our reality equal to its terms
[2012/07/29 12:31] Lulu Lacrima: Secular spiritualism?
[2012/07/29 12:31] Lulu Lacrima: I can cotton onto that
[2012/07/29 12:31] Chraeloos: Lulu, lol
[2012/07/29 12:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, I’ve split clouds and directed the way a candle’s flame goes, and it’s by plugging into this all surrounding energy, I believe
[2012/07/29 12:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Either that, or I’m possessed by demons
[2012/07/29 12:31] Chraeloos: Rhi, lol maybe a bit of both πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:31] Shay Ellison: or you’re just a naked succubus πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:31] Dom Lunasea: or delusions ; same thing
[2012/07/29 12:31] Chraeloos: Dom, why delusions?
[2012/07/29 12:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, well, tell me that when I visit your dreams
[2012/07/29 12:31] Tricipian Serendipity: our avatars are possesed by somethign γ‹‘
[2012/07/29 12:32] MusE Starsmith: WB RF !
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: re hi RF
[2012/07/29 12:32] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, don’t care if it is a delusion, as long as I can consistently do it and it enhances my life.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: Hi Nitewater
[2012/07/29 12:32] MusE Starsmith: WB Ara
[2012/07/29 12:32] Arabella Eyre (nitewater): TY
[2012/07/29 12:32] Shay Ellison: well, there’s also documented cases of identical twins who can feel pain from each other.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, what’s a delusion?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Dom Lunasea: how do you distinguish a delusion from the matrix
[2012/07/29 12:32] Shay Ellison: even at great distances
[2012/07/29 12:32] Chraeloos: Shay, what do you think that means?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Arabella Eyre (nitewater) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Tricipian Serendipity: here is something to ponder °͜° if we are made of the same stuff; are we allso following the same rules too?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: whoops, let me be more specific, Rhia, what is your delusion?
[2012/07/29 12:32] Arabella Eyre (nitewater) has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Dom said “or delusions;” I ws responding to that
[2012/07/29 12:32] Shay Ellison: not sure, but Rhia is talking about this shared energy.
[2012/07/29 12:32] Lulu Lacrima: yah, I missed it
[2012/07/29 12:32] Dom Lunasea: at what scale Tricip ?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tuppence Aubin: Oh, if you don’t know it’s a delusion then it is a delusion
[2012/07/29 12:33] Bryce Galbraith: Tri — which set of rules ?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, the shared energy.
[2012/07/29 12:33] Chraeloos: Paul, oh neat idea. Maybe we are
[2012/07/29 12:33] Shay Ellison: and maybe we DO influence the energy of others, even if that means creating “delusions” πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tricipian Serendipity: general “rules” of nature
[2012/07/29 12:33] Sonitus Randt: the rules are us
[2012/07/29 12:33] RevRob Beerbaum: how do you mean, Shay?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tricipian Serendipity: even in our thougst too
[2012/07/29 12:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But a delusion is a false belief, irrationally held, that hurts you. You know, like the idea that the Democrats are the party of the common man
[2012/07/29 12:33] Shay Ellison: thanks for the tip Chraeloos πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:33] MusE Starsmith: Sonitus, yes, I see that
[2012/07/29 12:33] Chraeloos: Paul, I think to an extent yes
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tuppence Aubin: lol
[2012/07/29 12:33] Chraeloos: most welcome Shay πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:33] Lulu Lacrima: well, if we all share the same delusion, with the implication being that a delusion does not represent an objective reality, then what does that say about the nature of reality as we perceive an interpret it?
[2012/07/29 12:33] Tricipian Serendipity: what i am suggesting is a general dynamic
[2012/07/29 12:33] RevRob Beerbaum: lol nice example, Rhiannon
[2012/07/29 12:34] Dom Lunasea: or Republicans are competent businessmen
[2012/07/29 12:34] Chraeloos: Rhi, lol
[2012/07/29 12:34] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Dom, yes, or that
[2012/07/29 12:34] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, RevRob
[2012/07/29 12:34] Tuppence Aubin: Oh dear
[2012/07/29 12:34] Shay Ellison: Rev, have you ever had a dream with visions of things you never encountered? patterns and shapes that seem meaningless?
[2012/07/29 12:34] RevRob Beerbaum: i’m not sure i follow, Tri
[2012/07/29 12:34] Shay Ellison: our dreams are formed by patters already in our minds, but we sometimes see things we can’t explain.
[2012/07/29 12:34] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely, Shay. meaningless though, only later. at the time very meaningful
[2012/07/29 12:34] Tricipian Serendipity: i prob will need to do an event to explore properly that idea revrob °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:34] Deunan Cuttita has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:34] MusE Starsmith: (BTW, tips are split between the venue and the host, so be generous if you can! Tip Jar is on the stage…THANKS!)
[2012/07/29 12:35] Lulu Lacrima: Perhaps Shay is referring to what others might call the collective unconscious?
[2012/07/29 12:35] Shay Ellison: yes, give it to the tip jar please.
[2012/07/29 12:35] Tuppence Aubin: ty
[2012/07/29 12:35] Shay Ellison: I’ll get a smidgen of it πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:35] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The collective unconscious is another word for the Akashic Records, and rests on the assumption that we participate in a common soul
[2012/07/29 12:35] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Which I believe
[2012/07/29 12:35] Bryce Galbraith: Paul, we certainly obey the rules governing matter …
[2012/07/29 12:35] Tricipian Serendipity: right bryce °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:35] MusE Starsmith: (a largish smidgen lol)
[2012/07/29 12:35] Chraeloos: Rhi, a common soul? interesting idea
[2012/07/29 12:35] Chraeloos: like the internet?
[2012/07/29 12:35] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, do you truly believe that we participate in a common soul?
[2012/07/29 12:36] Shay Ellison: lol, in some ways, calling it “energy” is like calling miraculous events we can’t explain, “God”
[2012/07/29 12:36] RevRob Beerbaum: that’s a nice interpretation of the collective unconscious, Rhiannon
[2012/07/29 12:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Chraeloos, minimally, yes
[2012/07/29 12:36] MusE Starsmith: I choose to disobey the law of gravity today….
[2012/07/29 12:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, Rev
[2012/07/29 12:36] RevRob Beerbaum: i remember reading some of Jung’s memoirs, where he felt taht “collective unconscious” as popularly interpreted to be his greatest mistake of wording
[2012/07/29 12:36] Shay Ellison: we’re still trying to figure it all out, but we do feels SOME connection with each other, our friends and loved ones, even our mortal enemies for those that have mortal enemies
[2012/07/29 12:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I had a dog that could levitate. She ran so quickly, I literally saw her floating in air as she moved
[2012/07/29 12:36] Zymony Guyot: MusE…the gravity cops outsourced enforcement of that to the pavement today….:)
[2012/07/29 12:36] Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, I’m sorry but I can’t believe your story
[2012/07/29 12:36] Chraeloos: REv, oh interesting
[2012/07/29 12:36] Tricipian Serendipity: i do feel thatconnection °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:36] Dom Lunasea sighs
[2012/07/29 12:37] MusE Starsmith: wow Rhia! does she give lessons?
[2012/07/29 12:37] MusE Starsmith: Zym, hehe
[2012/07/29 12:37] Tricipian Serendipity: but i can feel it too with the trees and rocks; and vistas out here also
[2012/07/29 12:37] Shay Ellison: the gravity cops went on strike when they encountered the massive black hole at the center of our own galaxy πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, and you gave a way to allow us to understand that connection
[2012/07/29 12:37] Chraeloos: lol Muse, agreed. I want lessons too!
[2012/07/29 12:37] Dom Lunasea: of course a running dog can get airborne – so can humans ans horses ; not the same as levitate
[2012/07/29 12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Don’t care, Lulu; I saw it.
[2012/07/29 12:37] Chraeloos: Paul, me too
[2012/07/29 12:37] MusE Starsmith: why sigh, Dom?
[2012/07/29 12:37] Lulu Lacrima: your seeing it doesn’t make it true
[2012/07/29 12:37] RevRob Beerbaum: yes, Tricipian! I feel that very strongly sometimes
[2012/07/29 12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But now I won’t give a naturalistic interpretation. Just so you will continue to not believe it
[2012/07/29 12:37] Barbie (barbiedoll.somerset): I have at times felt my spirit on the verge of flight, when i was dancing.
[2012/07/29 12:37] Tricipian Serendipity: lets stay on topic °͜° this is a one time special event
[2012/07/29 12:37] RevRob Beerbaum: I think “feeling” in general to be the bond of the connection, there
[2012/07/29 12:38] RevRob Beerbaum: isn’t everything πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:38] RevRob Beerbaum: (a one time special event)
[2012/07/29 12:38] Shay Ellison: I have an idea to bring it to topic in a few minutes actually πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:38] Barbie (barbiedoll.somerset): But as a being of electrical energy my feet are always seeking ground
[2012/07/29 12:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, and my seeing your text doesn’t make you an intelligent being. Turing, anyone?
[2012/07/29 12:38] MusE Starsmith: Rev, good point.
[2012/07/29 12:38] MusE Starsmith: If we ARE stardust, we can’t help but FEEL that
[2012/07/29 12:38] RF Axel: I wouldn’t claim we fully understand what is possible – just what we have current experience of. And, not all of that. πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:39] Lulu Lacrima: so we agree, as usual, Rhi πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: MusE — what does it feel like?
[2012/07/29 12:39] Tricipian Serendipity: this is a wonderful starting point for secular sprituality bc its offers the connection to the “unknown all” with the same providence of a dieity but absent the supernatural
[2012/07/29 12:39] Lulu Lacrima: how can a diety not be supernatural?
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: I don’t know that I have a feeling of being stardust… I know it more intellectually…
[2012/07/29 12:39] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, shhhh. Tri doesn’t believe in the massive black hole at the center of our galaxy
[2012/07/29 12:39] Lulu Lacrima: by definition, a deity is something that transcends the natural world
[2012/07/29 12:39] MusE Starsmith: Oh, I meant the connection, Bryce. The dust itself is a bit itchy. °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:39] Tricipian Serendipity: who said that tri?
[2012/07/29 12:39] RevRob Beerbaum: Bryce, a similar feeling might be that of a rampant metabolism
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: lol!
[2012/07/29 12:39] Bryce Galbraith: πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:39] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or wait, is that Sandor? Somebody who gives discussions doesn’t believe in dark matter
[2012/07/29 12:39] Tricipian Serendipity: rhi?
[2012/07/29 12:39] Shay Ellison: and if black holes are PART of the natural world, or universe in this case?
[2012/07/29 12:40] RF Axel: As the Mormons about non-spernatural deities…
[2012/07/29 12:40] Bryce Galbraith: I think that might be Sandor, Rhi…
[2012/07/29 12:40] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, sorry, anyway, was just a joke
[2012/07/29 12:40] Tricipian Serendipity: lets try to keep this a bit more serious
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: we’ll save dark matter and energy for a future discussion I think. that is even more confusing. lol
[2012/07/29 12:40] RF Axel: supernatural*
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: okay! thought experiment time!
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: eyes up on my text!
[2012/07/29 12:40] RevRob Beerbaum: o_o
[2012/07/29 12:40] Dom Lunasea looks at Shay’s .. text
[2012/07/29 12:40] Shay Ellison: I want you all to ponder your connection with the universe, the planets, the stars, jus reflect for a moment
[2012/07/29 12:41] Lulu Lacrima reflects
[2012/07/29 12:41] Shay Ellison: then say something in your own words that appeals to that connection.
[2012/07/29 12:41] RF Axel: Isn’t the universe supposed to match the properties of a black hole?
[2012/07/29 12:41] Shay Ellison: regardless of how different your views and beliefs are, focus on that connection, and lets see if we get some consensus
[2012/07/29 12:41] Shay Ellison: or have differing opinions that still share in that connection.
[2012/07/29 12:41] Lulu Lacrima: I am all, and I am none, a rhythmic breaking dissonance of one
[2012/07/29 12:41] Chraeloos: Lulu, nice!
[2012/07/29 12:41] Lulu Lacrima: πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:41] RevRob Beerbaum: hmm, i feel that connection to be similar to the connection felt at the gas pump. lots of us arriving at the same place, but our futures wildly diverging
[2012/07/29 12:41] Dom Lunasea: I see fleshy orbs , moving rhythmically .. in concert with gravity ..
[2012/07/29 12:42] Dom Lunasea: oh – wait the text
[2012/07/29 12:42] Shay Ellison: nice one Rev πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:42] Lulu Lacrima refrains from commenting on “fleshy orbs”
[2012/07/29 12:42] Shay Ellison: and very poetic Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:42] Lulu Lacrima: ty Shay
[2012/07/29 12:42] RevRob Beerbaum: thanks, Shay πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:42] Shay Ellison: I know, I almost facepalmed on the “fleshy orb” one πŸ˜€
[2012/07/29 12:42] Tricipian Serendipity: i see thru us the connection to the universe in a very powerful way; thru US the universe has conscousness
[2012/07/29 12:42] Tuppence Aubin: ty Shay
[2012/07/29 12:42] Chraeloos: I’m wondering if “connection” isn’t the right word. Its the same material. Its like opposite sides of the same coin – same thing, just looks different.
[2012/07/29 12:42] RevRob Beerbaum: we all have that commonality of past, and its effects are turbulent and unpredictable, but very much coinciding
[2012/07/29 12:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, we share the universal consciousness–the Brahman and the Atman are the same, just viewed from different perspectives
[2012/07/29 12:43] Shay Ellison: it could be Chraeloos, that our vantage from that material helps define our uniquness πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:43] Tricipian Serendipity: i agree chrae °͜° its an inclulsive connection
[2012/07/29 12:43] MusE Starsmith: in a nod to SL, I am made of many pixels as is all
[2012/07/29 12:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) looks at Chrae, as she just made a similar point to mine
[2012/07/29 12:43] Tuppence Aubin: yes
[2012/07/29 12:43] RevRob Beerbaum: speaking of, is anyone familiar with chaos? i feel it very much applies
[2012/07/29 12:43] Chraeloos: Rhi, I like that
[2012/07/29 12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): me too
[2012/07/29 12:44] Tricipian Serendipity: why rev?
[2012/07/29 12:44] Lulu Lacrima: chaos, as in chaos theory?
[2012/07/29 12:44] Chraeloos: Shay, yeah maybe it does – interesting point
[2012/07/29 12:44] Deunan Cuttita: all what i feel is we are just like a thought … cuz energy is the basic which let interact the material stuff … the basic prinicpal is interaction and that builds up the *whole*
[2012/07/29 12:44] RevRob Beerbaum: yeah, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) reaches back and holds unto Chrae’s thigh
[2012/07/29 12:44] Tricipian Serendipity: what is chaos anyway; chaos is an order in itself
[2012/07/29 12:44] Lulu Lacrima: or chaos, as in entropy?
[2012/07/29 12:44] RF Axel: Be polite to the electrons – they are doing their best. πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:44] Lulu Lacrima: chaos is the converse of order
[2012/07/29 12:44] Shay Ellison: this isn’t academic discussion though, so keep theories of M and “brane” theory to yourselves today πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:44] Tricipian Serendipity: is it?
[2012/07/29 12:44] Chraeloos: RF lol
[2012/07/29 12:44] RevRob Beerbaum: more chaos as in the theory. entropy is an expression of
[2012/07/29 12:45] Tricipian Serendipity: chaos and order only exist bc there are conscious beings to select waht is of each
[2012/07/29 12:45] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely, Shay πŸ™‚ I think of chaos as “repeating, though unpredictable patterns”
[2012/07/29 12:45] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Paul, so you don’t think the patterns are real?
[2012/07/29 12:45] Deunan Cuttita: what means real?
[2012/07/29 12:45] Dom Lunasea: many pretty words
[2012/07/29 12:45] MusE Starsmith: consciousness is necessary to the universe, but generated from where?
[2012/07/29 12:45] Lulu Lacrima: Seren, I would argue, not in total contradiction to your point, but that chaos and order only exists because they are complementary to each other
[2012/07/29 12:45] Tricipian Serendipity: before humans came along; the universe was doing what it was s doing
[2012/07/29 12:45] RevRob Beerbaum: meaning, since we are all expressions of a sort of unity, that our evolution repeats the patterns
[2012/07/29 12:45] Lulu Lacrima: thus, without the one, we could not define or understand the other
[2012/07/29 12:45] Tricipian Serendipity: no rhi; i dont
[2012/07/29 12:45] Zymony Guyot: I feel like there is a chain or link or line between me and everything…..atoms i’ve touched touch other atoms, touching other atoms, and so on out into the far reaches of what I can see, beyond that to what I can’t, beyond that to what I imagine, and even beyond that to things that every logical atom in my brain tells me doesn’t even exist….
[2012/07/29 12:46] RevRob Beerbaum: so the solar system continues in a certain way, and our selves are another expression of it
[2012/07/29 12:46] Chraeloos: Lulu, I agree
[2012/07/29 12:46] RF Axel: All patterns are real – matter is a pattern of energy; is energy just patterned space?
[2012/07/29 12:46] Lulu Lacrima: evolution is not a process that follows patterns, not even those suggestive in chaos theory
[2012/07/29 12:46] RevRob Beerbaum: wow, Zymony – nice
[2012/07/29 12:46] RevRob Beerbaum: i’d disagree with that, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:46] Tricipian Serendipity: order is selective; it requires us ; tho we are part of it , order is not somethig existing indpendantly
[2012/07/29 12:46] Chraeloos: Maybe we’re a figment of the universe’s imagination
[2012/07/29 12:46] Chraeloos: lol
[2012/07/29 12:46] Shay Ellison: consider this as well everyone: what if the atoms that make up your right arm, came from a DIFFERENT star than the atoms in your left arm? πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:47] Tuppence Aubin: Patterms are our way of making order from Chaos, who is to say if it is real
[2012/07/29 12:47] Dom Lunasea: they did
[2012/07/29 12:47] RevRob Beerbaum: at the very least, evolution as referenced in biology, all uses living matter as a pattern
[2012/07/29 12:47] Tricipian Serendipity: the “order” of the universe is just what eveer its doing
[2012/07/29 12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So the law of gravity didn’t exist before human consciousness?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Tricipian Serendipity: that is not waht i am saying rhi!
[2012/07/29 12:47] Lulu Lacrima: evolution relies on randomness….and chaos theory, at its heart, suggests there is order to randomness…but I would argue that there are different types of randomness
[2012/07/29 12:47] Zymony Guyot: Isn’t order and chaos merely different ages in the life of the same thing?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Lulu Lacrima: which is being very vague, I know
[2012/07/29 12:47] RevRob Beerbaum: lol, Shay. but at the very least they’d have a common ancestor at some point in the past, wouldn’t they?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Shay Ellison: even our dreams evolve from patterns too
[2012/07/29 12:47] RevRob Beerbaum: could you go more into that, Lulu?
[2012/07/29 12:47] Shay Ellison: yes Rev, that giant freakin cosmically HUGE gas cloud
[2012/07/29 12:47] Chraeloos: Zym, well put
[2012/07/29 12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then what are you saying, Tri? You said that order and patterns didn’t exist without humans
[2012/07/29 12:48] Lulu Lacrima: Humans are pattern-seekers
[2012/07/29 12:48] You decline NCI Dream Seeker Small Ground Classroom from A group member named Alaska Udimo.
[2012/07/29 12:48] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that would seem to include the order and pattern of the law of gravity
[2012/07/29 12:48] Tuppence Aubin: Sometimes, sometimes they are a way of looking at the same thing
[2012/07/29 12:48] RevRob Beerbaum: or cosmically tiny, at some point
[2012/07/29 12:48] Tricipian Serendipity: the dicernment doesnt exist rhi
[2012/07/29 12:48] MusE Starsmith: A contiuum, yes, Zym
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: we do take comfort in patterns. even our stubborn beliefs are there because of patterns.
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: and when our patterns or beliefs are challenged. . . .
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: discord and conflict!
[2012/07/29 12:48] Lulu Lacrima: we seek patterns even where none exist
[2012/07/29 12:48] Bryce Galbraith: Yes, indeed Shay πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:48] Tuppence Aubin: Yes we do
[2012/07/29 12:48] Bryce Galbraith: very well put…
[2012/07/29 12:48] Shay Ellison: oh yeah, I haven’t given my opinion yet. πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: it’s gonna pimp smack theists a little but. . .
[2012/07/29 12:49] Chraeloos: Shay, what do you think?
[2012/07/29 12:49] RevRob Beerbaum: well i don’t think that’s a faulty comfort at all. pattern is a natural result of any assumption of law or commonality of behavior
[2012/07/29 12:49] MusE Starsmith: “comfort in patterns” hadn’t thought of it that way
[2012/07/29 12:49] Dom Lunasea: stubborn beliefs :
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: our connection, our shared oneness does something that organized religion has failed on providing:
[2012/07/29 12:49] Chraeloos: I like that – “comfort in patterns”. So true
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: simplicity
[2012/07/29 12:49] Tricipian Serendipity: ah!!!! yes shay! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: we all came from a whole and are now diverse
[2012/07/29 12:49] Lulu Lacrima: such as Pareidolia
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: without commandments
[2012/07/29 12:49] RevRob Beerbaum: i’m not sure what you mean, Shay
[2012/07/29 12:49] Shay Ellison: without doctrine
[2012/07/29 12:49] Zymony Guyot has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:49] Tricipian Serendipity: but yet we are still a whole shay
[2012/07/29 12:50] Lulu Lacrima: e.g., seeing the face of Jesus in a cloud or tortilla
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: and it is that simplicity that trancends all notions of God
[2012/07/29 12:50] MusE Starsmith: ty Dom
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tuppence Aubin: Oh dear we keep losing people
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: at least our deistic ones
[2012/07/29 12:50] Chraeloos: Shay, I like that
[2012/07/29 12:50] RevRob Beerbaum: uh-oh, Tuppence
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: which helped me actually redefine God
[2012/07/29 12:50] RF Axel: If God throws dice, how many sides do they have? πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: into something not theistic
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tricipian Serendipity: simplicity is the start of all things
[2012/07/29 12:50] Chraeloos: Paul, and the end?
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: roll the dice to see if I”m getting drunk!
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tuppence Aubin: Indeed Rob
[2012/07/29 12:50] Shay Ellison: πŸ˜€
[2012/07/29 12:50] RevRob Beerbaum: i’d think that the simplicity is more of a direct acknowledgement of a deity, Shay
[2012/07/29 12:50] MusE Starsmith: yes, a few crashes…but they find their way back from the chaos, Tupp
[2012/07/29 12:50] Tricipian Serendipity: yes °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:50] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tuppence Aubin: I know
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: god od the internet is mad at them
[2012/07/29 12:51] Shay Ellison: fair enough, but is it necessary to live out our lives to hard and fast rules?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Lulu Lacrima: are we presupposing the existence of dieties simply b/c there seems to be some pattern to the chaos of this universe?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Chraeloos: Dom, lol
[2012/07/29 12:51] MusE Starsmith: Do you Rev? How so?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tricipian Serendipity: i think theer is a diff to simplicy and simplifying; re god
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tuppence Aubin: No, the internet is controlled by cats
[2012/07/29 12:51] RevRob Beerbaum: necessary, Shay?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Shay Ellison: to still share this connection with the beginning, do we need to punish ourselves with enforced suffering?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: cat + god
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: scary
[2012/07/29 12:51] Shay Ellison: with our limited notions of how to live our lives?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Lulu Lacrima: what if we’re engaging in nothing more than Pareidolia, on a larger scale?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Tuppence Aubin: Very
[2012/07/29 12:51] Zymony Guyot has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:51] MusE Starsmith: cod?
[2012/07/29 12:51] MusE Starsmith: WV Zym
[2012/07/29 12:51] Lulu Lacrima: what if we’re finding patterns b/c we are predispose to do so, when in fact none exist?
[2012/07/29 12:51] Dom Lunasea: lol
[2012/07/29 12:52] Chraeloos: wb zym
[2012/07/29 12:52] Tuppence Aubin: YEs Zymony
[2012/07/29 12:52] Chraeloos: Lulu, probably
[2012/07/29 12:52] RF Axel: You are using D20, not 3D6 – God hates you! πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:52] Dom Lunasea: exactly Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:52] Chraeloos: lol RF
[2012/07/29 12:52] MusE Starsmith: Lulu, that is worth considering!
[2012/07/29 12:52] Zymony Guyot: Thanks πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:52] Tricipian Serendipity: but that also makes us part of the process too lulu
[2012/07/29 12:52] RevRob Beerbaum: i don’t understand that, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:52] Shay Ellison: jus recently all of you had differing thoughts of you and the universe, yet still sharing a simplistic notion of oneness, a conection that goes beyond our concious imaginings
[2012/07/29 12:52] Dom Lunasea: our ancestors survived by over-believing in patterns
[2012/07/29 12:52] Lulu Lacrima: I don’t disagree, Seren
[2012/07/29 12:52] Shay Ellison: that’s the simplicity I was referring to
[2012/07/29 12:53] RevRob Beerbaum: i guess if we consider “pattern” as some sort of pre-determination, we’d lose out
[2012/07/29 12:53] Lulu Lacrima: RevBob, we are by nature predisposed to find patterns
[2012/07/29 12:53] Shay Ellison: that we don’t have to complicate our lives with doctrine and scripture, especially forcing it on others.
[2012/07/29 12:53] Shay Ellison: be happy with our beliefs, no matte how they differ, yet still sharing something in common
[2012/07/29 12:53] Lulu Lacrima: and as a result, we are also predisposed to display a cognitive bias for pattern-seeking, even where there are none
[2012/07/29 12:53] RevRob Beerbaum: Lulu – but what of that predisposition? where would that come from?
[2012/07/29 12:53] Tuppence Aubin: Maybe, there is a lot we don’t know about our ancesterors
[2012/07/29 12:53] Tricipian Serendipity: but we do have to force ourselves to some sort of consensus being to function in a society shay
[2012/07/29 12:53] Dom Lunasea: evolution
[2012/07/29 12:53] Bryce Galbraith: Yep… we’ll fill in gaps to make a pattern work if we need to… and we won’t even realize we’ve done that πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:54] Shay Ellison: well sure Tri. civilization is the hotspots for conflict among each other
[2012/07/29 12:54] Shay Ellison: if you want to avoid dealing with other people, become a hermit! πŸ˜€
[2012/07/29 12:54] Lulu Lacrima: Pareidolia
[2012/07/29 12:54] Dom Lunasea: pretty word
[2012/07/29 12:54] Lulu Lacrima: look it up! πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:54] Tuppence Aubin: Not I, hermits have it hard
[2012/07/29 12:54] Tricipian Serendipity: prob is we t hink “our way” is the only way; we dont see it as part of the same process as just “a” way
[2012/07/29 12:54] Lulu Lacrima: I like that, Seren
[2012/07/29 12:54] Zymony Guyot: If we consider “pattern” to be any form of repetition, short of having an infinite type of non-reapeating atoms, patterns are inevitable. Seeking them I think is just a universal method of finding your bearings cosmically speaking.
[2012/07/29 12:54] RevRob Beerbaum: Shay – i think the doctrine and scripture has more of a nod towards the teaching of a path – people have followed certain paths, found certain truths or experiences, and are passing on a sort of method aimed to help others arrive at such
[2012/07/29 12:55] Lulu Lacrima: afk for a sec
[2012/07/29 12:55] MusE Starsmith: Yes we do Bryce. Whence comes the initial pattern?
[2012/07/29 12:55] Tuppence Aubin: I live that Zym
[2012/07/29 12:55] Shay Ellison: yes, good thought Tri. there are many ways to write a program that adds 1 and 1 together. all programs can differ, but they still arrive at the same outcome πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 12:55] MusE Starsmith: hb Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:55] RF Axel: How will the priests persuade us to give them free food, then? πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:55] Tricipian Serendipity: exactly shay γ‹‘
[2012/07/29 12:55] Tuppence Aubin: I don’t have a priest
[2012/07/29 12:55] Amandeep Timeless: patterns to stack the odds
[2012/07/29 12:56] RevRob Beerbaum: i like that, Zymony
[2012/07/29 12:56] Shay Ellison: keep in mind Rev, truth is also perception. what we take away from a given event, and that does not aid in eye witness testimony
[2012/07/29 12:56] MusE Starsmith: RF! γ‹‘
[2012/07/29 12:56] Lulu Lacrima: back
[2012/07/29 12:56] Shay Ellison: like that classroom experiment where one child whispers something to the one next to them, and then throughout the entire room
[2012/07/29 12:56] Shay Ellison: but ending up with a totally different phrase.
[2012/07/29 12:56] Zymony Guyot: Well some patterns when identified, win you bar bets and little else…..others let you make tons of money in say the football pool or the stock market πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 12:56] Tricipian Serendipity: patterns are parts of the whole; not apart from it
[2012/07/29 12:56] MusE Starsmith: Yes, always astounding, that experiment, Shay
[2012/07/29 12:56] Tuppence Aubin: Good point
[2012/07/29 12:56] Lulu Lacrima: sometimes the whole is not the sum of its parts
[2012/07/29 12:56] Sonitus Randt: like waves on the ocean, paul
[2012/07/29 12:57] Lulu Lacrima: a Gestalt perspective
[2012/07/29 12:57] Tricipian Serendipity: yes
[2012/07/29 12:57] RevRob Beerbaum: still, Shay, even if we say that a certain site (like the beach) is worth seeing, we’re saying that going to such a site (reproducing the events) is a good thing
[2012/07/29 12:57] Tricipian Serendipity: the whole is always the sum of its parts
[2012/07/29 12:57] Tricipian Serendipity: we select diff parts to call a whole tho hehe
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: and you you ask two women or two men in love if their relationship is good or evil, then ask a devout priest for the catholic faith the same, you will likely get two seperate answers
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: so what IS good, and what IS evil?
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: what is truth?
[2012/07/29 12:57] Shay Ellison: yours? mine?
[2012/07/29 12:58] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) has entered chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:58] RevRob Beerbaum: ours
[2012/07/29 12:58] Lulu Lacrima: nope, there is a phenomenon in psychology that is “gestalt” which illustrates experimimentally that we actually will perceive a “whole” object without all of its constituent parts
[2012/07/29 12:58] Tricipian Serendipity: those are deep tangents shay hehe
[2012/07/29 12:58] MusE Starsmith: WB Rhia
[2012/07/29 12:58] Shay Ellison: that’s the end goal, to hopefully find some shared belief we don’t have to kill and/or hurt each other over.
[2012/07/29 12:58] RevRob Beerbaum: creativty, Lulu
[2012/07/29 12:58] RF Axel: No emergent stuff, then, Tri?
[2012/07/29 12:58] MusE Starsmith: worthy goal, Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:58] Chraeloos: wb Rhi
[2012/07/29 12:58] RevRob Beerbaum: well killing each other is politics – not spirituality
[2012/07/29 12:58] Dom Lunasea: ask the vegetarians about killing each other ;
[2012/07/29 12:58] Tricipian Serendipity: but again good and evil is like order an chaos
[2012/07/29 12:59] Tricipian Serendipity: they are biases
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: not really, RevBob, even simple perceptual entitites
[2012/07/29 12:59] Shay Ellison: we almost at end of discussion. I guess this is where it can go in any direction, but before we wrap up, any final thoughts from the gang?
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: what I’m describing now is not a bias
[2012/07/29 12:59] Dom Lunasea: we are all starstuff , we share dna ; we eat each other
[2012/07/29 12:59] Shay Ellison: what’s a good takeaway to um. . . take away? πŸ˜€
[2012/07/29 12:59] Chraeloos: Shay, you did a great job. I’d love to see events like this more often!
[2012/07/29 12:59] Tricipian Serendipity: sure there is emergence
[2012/07/29 12:59] Dom Lunasea: mmmm takeaway
[2012/07/29 12:59] Zymony Guyot: Yes….Very Well Done Shay!!!!
[2012/07/29 12:59] MusE Starsmith: hmmm, Dom! °͜°
[2012/07/29 12:59] RevRob Beerbaum: give us a focus, Shay?
[2012/07/29 12:59] Melody (melody.trefusis) has left chat range.
[2012/07/29 12:59] Amandeep Timeless: thanks Shay!
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: it’s just the way our brains works: we decode information that’s merely sufficient to define a “whole” without always incorporating all of its parts
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: it’s actually an efficient process
[2012/07/29 12:59] Lulu Lacrima: if you think about it
[2012/07/29 13:00] Lulu Lacrima: thus evolutionarily sensible
[2012/07/29 13:00] Tricipian Serendipity: i have the anser to the focus hehe
[2012/07/29 13:00] Amandeep Timeless: decipher enough to be useful
[2012/07/29 13:00] RevRob Beerbaum: hehe
[2012/07/29 13:00] Shay Ellison: many scientists would call it categorization, Lulu πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 13:00] Lulu Lacrima: amandeep, exactly
[2012/07/29 13:00] Lulu Lacrima: no, shay, it’s Gestalt
[2012/07/29 13:00] RF Axel: That we can exchange views shows we are connected?
[2012/07/29 13:00] Tricipian Serendipity: look at your own life ; if we are part of the all then our lives are the all too
[2012/07/29 13:00] RevRob Beerbaum: definitely, Tricipian
[2012/07/29 13:00] Chraeloos: Paul, I like that
[2012/07/29 13:00] RevRob Beerbaum: we are the fringes of the same process
[2012/07/29 13:00] Tricipian Serendipity: there is nothing we are doing that is outside of being
[2012/07/29 13:01] MusE Starsmith: (In the chaos, you may not have remembered that the tip jar is on the stage, but there it is, should you wish it) γ‹‘
[2012/07/29 13:01] Shay Ellison: “No man is an island, entire of itself. Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.” — John Donne
[2012/07/29 13:01] Amandeep Timeless: you decide which molecules will be
[2012/07/29 13:01] Tricipian Serendipity: hear here! shay
[2012/07/29 13:01] Lulu Lacrima:
[2012/07/29 13:01] Shay Ellison: damnit! I could’ve worked that quote in earlier! πŸ˜€
[2012/07/29 13:01] MusE Starsmith: such a good one, Shay
[2012/07/29 13:02] RF Axel: Your teeth like you -if they didn’t you’d be in real trouble – that sort of conclusion? πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 13:02] Dom Lunasea: pretty words
[2012/07/29 13:02] MusE Starsmith: Aman, oh…!
[2012/07/29 13:02] Tricipian Serendipity: i really liked this event °͜°
[2012/07/29 13:02] Sonitus Randt: enjoyed this shay, all very interesting
[2012/07/29 13:02] Shay Ellison: pretty words preceede pompous posturings? πŸ˜€
[2012/07/29 13:02] Bryce Galbraith: thanks for hosting Shay πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 13:02] RevRob Beerbaum: thanks so much, Shay!
[2012/07/29 13:02] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “I am you and you are me and we are all together; I am the Walrus; I am the Egg man. Koo koo a choo”
[2012/07/29 13:02] Chraeloos: Thank you so much Shay!
[2012/07/29 13:02] Tuppence Aubin: thank you
[2012/07/29 13:02] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Applause!
[2012/07/29 13:03] MusE Starsmith: This was fantastic, really good job, Shay!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Zymony Guyot: For me the takeaway is that even though I consider myself a conscious human with my own thoughts and self-awareness….I might still be a tiny molecule in a greater organism that I cannot comprehend….for now I’m calling it “God” but “Working Title” could be just as suitable….and that my quest for spirituality is the gradual understanding of what playing this part means….
[2012/07/29 13:03] Barbie (barbiedoll.somerset): I’m bitter because everyone here seems so much more informed on the topic than am I πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 13:03] Chraeloos: lol Rhi, love it
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tuppence Aubin: More applause
[2012/07/29 13:03] Arabella Eyre (nitewater): And all you need is love?
[2012/07/29 13:03] Shay Ellison: thanks for sharing your views and finding our beliefs are possibly different takes on a shared ideal
[2012/07/29 13:03] MusE Starsmith: LIke that, Zymony
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tricipian Serendipity: open stage discussions! (new event???)
[2012/07/29 13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Arabella, exactly
[2012/07/29 13:03] Zymony Guyot: Yes Shay, wonderful discussion!!!
[2012/07/29 13:03] RevRob Beerbaum: Zymony – interesting!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Chraeloos: Zym, agreed!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Lulu Lacrima: Shay, terrific job!
[2012/07/29 13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It was a smashing success, Paul, so I’d say, yes
[2012/07/29 13:03] MusE Starsmith: * * clap clap clap * *
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tricipian Serendipity: maybe our beliefds are not all that different
[2012/07/29 13:03] Dom Lunasea: Poets priests and politicians
Have words to thank for their positions
Words that scream for your submission
And no-one’s jamming their transmission
‘Cos when their eloquence escapes you
Their logic ties you up and rapes you
[2012/07/29 13:03] Shay Ellison: that was the title of John Donne’s poem actually, Love
[2012/07/29 13:03] Tricipian Serendipity: if they stem from the same star stuff must be something common there °͜°
[2012/07/29 13:03] Amandeep Timeless: 1/7 billionth God
[2012/07/29 13:04] Zymony Guyot: PRobably not Tri….we like like killing each other over a working title πŸ™‚
[2012/07/29 13:04] Shay Ellison: another definition for love, as if we didn’t have too many already πŸ˜‰
[2012/07/29 13:04] Shay Ellison: the all inclusive definitions of love are my favorite

Secular Saturday Transcript Aug 4 2012

Below is a copy of the transcript form the August 4 Secular Saturday held at Tricipian Center at 10pmSLT. I got everyones permission to post this, and I didn’t edit out anyone’s names. Great discussion guys. Thank you!

[22:07] Chraeloos: Ok, well lets get started then. Welcome everyone to Secular Saturday! I’m so glad you could all make it πŸ™‚ If you like what you see and want to see more please leave a donation, the bowl is in the back between Violet and Sonitus!
[22:07] Chraeloos: The topic today is the two links I put into chat before…
[22:07] Chraeloos:
[22:07] Chraeloos:
[22:08] Chraeloos: Basically, the story goes…
[22:08] Chraeloos: A Russian scientist has sent a letter to the Forbes list of richest people asking for them to give him money for a project he’s starting. He intends to have created a holographic human body for us to reside in by 2045, so that we can be immortal.
[22:08] Chraeloos: The stages of said process are as follows:
[22:09] Chraeloos: A: 2015 – 20 A robotic copy of a human body remotely controlled
[22:09] Chraeloos: B: 2020-2025 An avatar in which a human brain can be transplanted (and personality – soul?)
[22:10] Chraeloos: C: 2030-2035 An avatar in which an artificial brain exists and where a humans personality can be transferred
[22:10] Chraeloos: and D: 2040-2045 A holographic-like avatar
[22:11] Chraeloos: Some of the people are supporting him, some are not.
[22:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: Like the Doctor in Voyager, only he’s you.
[22:11] Chraeloos: What do you think?
[22:11] Rory Torrance: everyone always seem to think that artificial intelligence ought to be so easy, but man the progress has been more than disappointing. i wish them well but my feeling is no chance in hell
[22:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I think go for it. Get donations, do the work, see what happens
[22:11] Chraeloos: Rory, how no chance?
[22:11] Chraeloos: Rhia, what if it doesn’t? WHat happens to all that money?
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: It goes to support people who in turn buy things and support other people. Money is like energy–it never dies
[22:12] Bryce Galbraith: Chrae — that money will be in the Cayman Islands somewhere πŸ˜‰
[22:12] Rory Torrance: they cant even make a computer think for itself, much less really copy a human consciousness
[22:12] Chraeloos: For those who came in late, we’re talking about these two articles: and
[22:12] Chraeloos: Rhi, sometimes
[22:12] MarieEcho: i wonder how consciousness can be transplanted
[22:12] Chraeloos: Bryce, lol probably!
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, if you believe that the brain correlates with the mind, then you can create an artificial brain.
[22:12] Chraeloos: Rory, yeah, true
[22:12] Bryce Galbraith: Basically they’re going after the whole singularity thing…
[22:12] Rory Torrance: we are nowhere near really having a clue what consciousness is
[22:12] Violet: I think if you’re going to get super into a project like this, you’re going to hit a wall sooner or later with the question of how much awareness and physiology are tangled up…
[22:12] Chraeloos: Marie, what is consciousness?
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, it’s no more of a problem than any other research that might fail
[22:13] Chraeloos: Bryce, yes. And Rhi, true – it must be physical to work
[22:13] Bryce Galbraith: The thing is, I think it would have been more realistic to go for a kind of ‘clinical immortality’… basically make existing bodies last a lot longer.
[22:13] Chraeloos: Violet, agreed
[22:13] Violet: Right, Bryce
[22:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, it’s not either…or. There are people working on that too
[22:13] Chraeloos: Rhi, true, but this may be one of the most expensive endeavors yet
[22:13] MusE Starsmith: Like cyborgs, Bryce?
[22:13] Bryce Galbraith: yes, that’s true Rhi…
[22:13] MarieEcho: emergent property from physical conditions in the brain, which i dont really understand either
[22:13] Chraeloos: Bryce, “a lot longer” isn’t forever, though
[22:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: That’s the beauty of private enterprise–you don’t have to appeal to a committee which might approve you this year and not approve you next year
[22:14] Rory Torrance: i bet the biological approach will succeed long before we have true artificial consciousness
[22:14] Bryce Galbraith: MusE — not like cyborgs… at least not what I’m thinking of.
[22:14] Violet: Good answer, Marie πŸ™‚
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi, true lol
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, I agree with Arthur C. Clarke–Methuselah is probably the wall
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rory, why?
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi, whats that?
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: But can you imagine people going–oh, well, since I can only live to 900 at most, why bother with life extension?
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi lol true
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, that the brain probably can’t take more than 900 years of experience
[22:15] XTC: …so who’s going to own me?
[22:15] Rory Torrance: because we understand the genetic mechanisms of death a little but, but we dont understand consciousness at all
[22:15] Violet: I think slowing down aging and advances in regenerative medicine are doable, eventually….but I really don’t know about stuff like consciousness transfer
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: In the past century the average lifespan has increased significantly just from things like improved sanitation, better medical care, improved diets, and such.
[22:15] AnthonyE Staryk: ever heard of Aubrey de Grey, he proposes that aging is disease, that can be “engineered” away…
[22:15] Chraeloos: XTC, Great question
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah.. that does ring a bell Anthony…
[22:15] Chraeloos: Rhia, oh good point. Is there a limit to our memories?
[22:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, that’s true, but the biblical three score and ten, four score if you’re really struggling, is the current average.
[22:15] MarieEcho: and what does it mean to live on, means to resume the same identity…if consicousness is preserved, then the identity is preserved too? thus lifespan gets longer?
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: actually there’s somebody else that is making that argument too .. about aging being a disease.. but I can’t place her name.
[22:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s just that with good nutrition, clean conditions, medicines and, above all, wealth, that’s a democratic goal now
[22:15] Chraeloos: Violet, what makes it different than prolonging cell life?
[22:16] Violet: I know Aubrey deGrey is doing work there, Bryce
[22:16] XTC: aging isn’t a disease, its a state of mind
[22:16] Chraeloos: Bryce, very true, but a lot more people have memory degeneration
[22:16] AnthonyE Staryk: what happens when an immortal commits a crime, such as murder? gives a whole new concept to “life sentence”
[22:16] Chraeloos: Anthony, interesting
[22:16] MarieEcho: i am unsure if a holograph of a person means the person’s life is prelonged
[22:17] Violet: Prolonging cell life would be pretty useful, I think, Chrae…especially in stuff like anemias
[22:17] Chraeloos: XTC interesting, how so?
[22:17] Sonitus Randt: i wonder if, past a certain number of years, there might be a limit to what consciousness can tolerate, similar to the way we can’t stay awake for days and dayswithout hallucinating, etc. Is there an “awareness limit” before we see through to what reality really is?
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: Yes, Anthony…SciFi explores some of these themes, but we don’t really know.
[22:17] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, I think there was a Trilight Zone about that; the devil gives a man immortality. The guy’s wife, terrified, leaps to her death. He decides to take the rap for it so as to be electrocuted (he can’t die, remember?) His lawyers get him life instead. heh.
[22:17] Chraeloos: Marie, good point.
[22:17] Rory Torrance: even if you make a robot that behaves exactly like you do you really think that will be YOU in there?
[22:17] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, yes, Clark likened it to the mind being a palimsist
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: I don’t really see a POINT to extending life…why is longer better, if you’ll forgive me?
[22:17] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that’s true Chrae — we’ve extended life but revealed a lot of other problems associated with aging — alzheimers, dementia, various cancers, just the physical body wearing out.
[22:17] Chraeloos: Sonitus, interesting, so you’re suggesting that reality is separate from what we see now?
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: right, Rory…where/who/how/ is “me”?
[22:18] Bryce Galbraith: That’s where the challenge is… I suspect those are more tractable problems than trying to capture your mind and upload that into a computer to inhabit an avatar of some kind.
[22:18] Rory Torrance: yes indeed
[22:18] AnthonyE Staryk: what if aging is as XTC says simply a “state of mind”…a meme that we’ve all been infected with?
[22:18] Chraeloos: Rory, good question. Would it be?
[22:18] Violet: I think if consciousness is transferrable, that pretty much breaks our models of the universe….and if it’s only “copyable,” then blah. That’s just depressing πŸ™‚
[22:18] Rory Torrance: i very much doubt it
[22:18] Rhiannon of the Birds: yes, there is a real problem in personal identity associated with longevity
[22:18] Sonitus Randt: I suggesting it might go deeper, rabbit hole like to…. where?
[22:18] Bryce Galbraith: Oh — I think I remember that episode of the Twilight Zone now Rhi!
[22:19] Chraeloos: Muse, I agree completely. If we’re immortal, what do we do when the planet dies? When our earth explodes? Float around in space? Whats powering our hologram?
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, if the mind is copyable–that raises issues of personal identity, but not if it’s transferable
[22:19] Sonitus Randt: Can opt out of immortality with suicide.
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, although much will slow down if we are immortal, maybe getting warp drive becomes the one priority for that reason. lol
[22:19] Chraeloos: Violet, lol depressing, I like that. like “its that simple?”
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, unless they make opting out illegal and then they bring you back.
[22:19] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose our mind being copied would be a way of creating a clone of sorts.. the copy would then have its own existence from that point..
[22:20] Bryce Galbraith: It might be like the multiple ‘Agent Smiths’ in The Matrix πŸ™‚
[22:20] MusE Starsmith: “Mind” and “identity” aren’t the same thing…
[22:20] Chraeloos: Sonitus, would we want to go there? How long do you have to be dead for htem to not be able to transfer?
[22:20] AnthonyE Staryk: your memories and your mind, your neural pathways may be duplicatible, does that means your awareness/consciousness is?
[22:20] Violet: I was thinking more like The Possibility of an Island….and all the future-me’s making mopey LiveJournal posts for eternity… πŸ˜›
[22:20] Chraeloos: Bryce, oh maybe haha
[22:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, or that Outer Limits which took place in a society that only allowed organ cloning; not whole body cloning; a couple of scientists did it anyway–something went wrong and this guy ended up with his wife and clone wife.
[22:20] harmoniasophia Scribe: could you expound on that Muse
[22:20] Violet: That’s where the wall is, I thin, Muse
[22:20] Chraeloos: Anthony, what do you think?
[22:21] Chraeloos: Violet, lol! I love livejournal…miss it a bit haha
[22:21] Bryce Galbraith: hmm… I don’t remember that Outer Limits episode.. was that the original series or the ‘New Outer Limits’ Rhi?
[22:21] Violet: I don’t really think awareness can be reduced…so dealing with it as a physical property is…hard to wrap my head around
[22:21] MusE Starsmith: Star Trek original, where they transferred some aliens’ minds into Spock, et al
[22:21] Rory Torrance: i cant think of the title but there was an old scifi novel by jack williamson about this guy who might as well be in hell because a company owns his pattern and they beam him all over the galaxy to do dangerous or fatal jobs, he is killed over and over and has to keep coming back… that kind of nonsense will be a real danger if they ever get this stuff to work
[22:21] Violet: πŸ™‚ Chrae
[22:21] Rhiannon of the Birds: And clone wife had a download of first wife’s personality
[22:21] Chraeloos: Violet, I agree
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, right, I remember that series. He had an ‘elan’ or something
[22:22] Chraeloos: Rory, oh true. Would there be crime if we lived forever?
[22:22] Rory Torrance: cant recall exactly, its been a long time
[22:22] Violet: Hi Tri πŸ™‚
[22:22] Bryce GalbraithBryce Galbraith is suddenly amused by the possible new avenues for social drama from having various clones of one’s self running about πŸ˜‰
[22:22] Rory Torrance: i bet there would be whole new kinds of crime
[22:22] AnthonyE Staryk: I don’t believe that our consciousness is the same as the mind that is in our body. Since we are able to observe ourselves. Observe our thoughts arising out of the ether in our mind when in deep meditation, I think there’s something beyond the mind/brain in our bodies.
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: hi Paul!
[22:22] Chraeloos: Hey Pual!
[22:22] Chraeloos: lol Bryce!
[22:22] Bryce Galbraith: Oh! And maybe this is where we start adding numbers after our names to distinguish copies of an original! “Bryce Galbraith 43”
[22:22] Rory Torrance: yes i agree anthony
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, I agree
[22:23] Chraeloos: Rory, probably. we get creative that way I fear
[22:23] XTC: namaste, paul
[22:23] MusE Starsmith: TY harmonia. Mind, to me is the “thing” we all share, our “selves” are made up of our physicality as well. We may exist without the body shell, but what exists isn’t the “us” we know.
[22:23] MarieEcho: i dont think making a clone of oneself prelongs that person’s life….he would die any way, only his repication, athe clone child lives on
[22:23] MusE Starsmith: Hi Paul
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: Hey Paul…
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that’s a good point Marie…
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, Bryce; like I have a series of alts with the first being Rhia007, the next will be 008, etc.
[22:23] Chraeloos: Bryce, hahaha I hope not. I don’t want to be a number in a system…oh wait we already are…;)
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Marie, yes, clones are survivors, like children.
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: too late Chrae… that too has come to pass πŸ™‚
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s the same sense of immortality we have now
[22:23] AnthonyE Staryk: In that case, the trick becomes that element of humans that has yet to be defined, beyond, the recognition of 8 ozs less weight in a body after an individual has expired.
[22:24] Violet: And clones would become more susceptible to disease quicker than natural children
[22:24] harmoniasophia Scribe: interesting thoughts Muse
[22:24] Violet: So the line would get wiped out, anyway.
[22:24] Chraeloos: anthony, very true
[22:24] Chraeloos: Hey Paul!
[22:24] AnthonyE Staryk: cloning fails after a known number of iterations
[22:24] Violet: wb Tri
[22:24] Chraeloos: Violet, why?
[22:24] MusE Starsmith: WB Paul
[22:24] Rhiannon of the Birds: But if Clark is right, after a certain point, Methusalah will not have any direct memory links to his younger self–so in what sense is he the same person? Parfitt used that in his problems of personal identity
[22:24] Bryce Galbraith: On the subject of immortality, I remember now in Kim Stanley Robinson’s ‘Icehenge’ he portrayed a future human society that was starting to expand into the solar system, and along the way they achieve a kind of clinical immortality.
[22:24] Tricipian Serendipity: hi
[22:24] Chraeloos: Muse, very interesting. What makes you think that?
[22:24] Bryce Galbraith: You could still die from an accident and such…
[22:25] Violet: Well, the big advantage of sexual reproduction is that we mix up our genetics πŸ™‚
[22:25] Chraeloos: Paul we’re talking about this: and
[22:25] Chraeloos: Bryce, maybe not. THey’d just upload you into a new body from the main server, like in BSG
[22:25] Tricipian Serendipity: extending the longevity of life will do us little good if we dont improve the quality of life
[22:25] Rhiannon of the Birds: Violet, right; that’s why many SF writers (and some philosophers) think a society of immortals will stagnate
[22:25] MarieEcho: which can adapt to natural selections
[22:25] Bryce Galbraith: .. but barring that you could conceivably just keep living.. howeve, after a while, people’s earlier memories started to recede. So in practice you only remember a ‘sliding window’ of time in your life.
[22:25] Chraeloos: Violet, right, would a hologram be able to procreate?
[22:25] Bryce Galbraith: I think that’s actually my favorite book of his…
[22:26] Rory Torrance: very true paul
[22:26] Chraeloos: Bryce, interesing
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: hi rory!! nice to meet you
[22:26] AnthonyE Staryk: genetic diversity is what is beneficial, not a drawback as is so often misidentified…Immortality would impact the birth rate as well as the mortality rate…
[22:26] Chraeloos: Paul, yes definitely. Would peole want to live forever?
[22:26] MarieEcho: dawkins has some chapters on why after certain points, the genes throw away the living body, and wants to build a new one from scratch
[22:26] MarieEcho: which means the old ppl die and younger ppl grow form babies again
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: the rich would be the first to benefit and are they the best to be ? hehe
[22:26] Violet: I don’t want to live forever…..I just want to live a really, really, really long time πŸ˜›
[22:26] AnthonyE Staryk: immortality could become incredibly detrimental to our long term existence as a species
[22:26] Bryce Galbraith: Actually even now I don’t remember everything anyway — that’s why I have a bunch of notebooks and such.. paper and digital … to serve as my extended memory …
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: how long is forever?
[22:26] Zon Kwan: but what if we have soul that already lives longer than one life
[22:27] Chraeloos: Paul, I agree completely. The tech would only be available to those who ould afford it…and personally I don’t want them around forever lol
[22:27] Chraeloos: Violet, lol!
[22:27] Tricipian Serendipity: human civilization is only about 7k years old
[22:27] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, most people don’t want to live forever, they’d just rather not die
[22:27] MarieEcho: why do ppl want to live long , whats the purpose of living
[22:27] MusE Starsmith: Chrae, the thing about “self” is it’s not ultimately definable. But for me, the totality of my physical experience is/must be intertwined and interdependent with any “mind” I may have.
[22:27] Chraeloos: Bryce, right me too
[22:27] MusE Starsmith: or maybe I’m just out of said mind… lol
[22:27] Violet: haha, that’s a good way to put it, Rhi
[22:27] AnthonyE Staryk: How do you know that’s not the case now Zon. Simply our awareness of such things is not present?
[22:27] Chraeloos: Paul, forever could be after the earth explodes and we’re all floating aroundin our avatars in space wondering what the heck to do now?
[22:27] Zon Kwan: nods
[22:27] Violet: Life is comfortable–it’s where I keep all my stuff πŸ™‚
[22:28] Tricipian Serendipity: and still lagging too chrae hehe lol
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, ditto Violet πŸ™‚
[22:28] Zon Kwan: reincranation means consciosness shift to antoher body
[22:28] Tricipian Serendipity: what is the tier in this extend life idea hehe
[22:28] Rory Torrance: id be happy to go explore the galaxy personally
[22:28] Chraeloos: Muse, agreed. So you wouldn’t want to if you didn’t know 100% what it would turn out as?
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: Hmmm.. actually, I’m not sure I quite agree that immortality would result in stagnation…
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: It might actually be very liberating.
[22:28] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, where’s the fun in that, Muse?
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: You would have time to explore lots of ideas and such.
[22:28] Chraeloos: VIolet, lolol
[22:28] Chraeloos: Paul, lol
[22:28] Violet: I think, if nothing else, immortality would force us to think in longer time scales
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: It might be that immortality really frees humans.
[22:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: There was an Asimov story along similar lines to your idea of our avatars wondering through the galaxies.
[22:29] MusE Starsmith: I’m not saying that, Chrae, as I could never really know, and as Bryce says…it may be an adventure
[22:29] MusE Starsmith: Hello FEndy and Bikeoh
[22:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: And a couple became upset when they missed their bodies
[22:29] Violet: It sometimes seems to me that we don’t really live long enough to develop the way we should.
[22:29] Chraeloos: Bryce, agreed, but who gets to live forever? THis planet isn’t sustainable for this many people
[22:29] Bikejoh: rhiannon, maybe the last question?
[22:29] Chraeloos: Muse, true
[22:29] Chraeloos: Hi Sly πŸ™‚
[22:29] AnthonyE Staryk: I would think that population issues will become more relevant, and humanities desire to reach out to the stars would expand since immortality would allow for an individual to explore far reaches of space and individuals will still be alive when they reach a far out destination.
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — are you thinking of the short story ‘Eyes do More than See’?
[22:29] Violet: Then again, mortality kind of keeps me going in a sense….without it, I might put off living indefinitely.
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: I think that was the title…
[22:29] harmoniasophia Scribe: a hologram wont need food
[22:29] Rory Torrance: yes the human species has so far shown little ability to think even in the long term of one lifetime, a major shift of perspective would be needed…
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith:
[22:29] AnthonyE Staryk: Think that was the Foundation septaologu Rhia…
[22:29] DonJuan Writer: there’s a wonderful sci-fi book by John Wyndham called “The Trouble With Lichen” on the life extension subject.. the scientist who held the secret was a woman and she gave it to the young wives of billionaires.. to bring a more feminine touch to the future
[22:30] Chraeloos: Rhia, I think I am familiar with that. HOw are you intimate if you can’t touch?
[22:30] Fendybendy: I think the universe is a circle. Discuss.
[22:30] Bikejoh: universe big
[22:30] Bikejoh: toke
[22:30] Chraeloos: Anthony, I agree
[22:30] Rory Torrance: lol
[22:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, maybe; it was one that was based on a picture of a nude statue sent to him, and other authors, by Playboy. He wrote a story, they rejected it at warp speed, and he sent it to Fantasy and Science Fiction, where a friend was an editor
[22:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: (Or Galaxy)
[22:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: (We’ve managed it, Chrae. ::blushes::)
[22:31] Chraeloos: haha Rhi, mhm
[22:31] Chraeloos: Ok, so what shift would we need to get through living forever?
[22:32] Sonitus Randt: re: intimacy, a movie with a related theme, loss of the physical, is “The Colossus of New York” starring Ross Martin – human brain I think, not just mind, put into robot body – 50s
[22:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: I think most people base their notions of immortality on their physical bodies–and even if their consciousness was transfered to a hologram, they’d feel cheated
[22:32] Chraeloos: What would the implications be on working? On social activities, etc.?
[22:32] Chraeloos: Rhia, probably. I know I would.
[22:32] MusE Starsmith: way back THEN, Sonitus…interesting people have thought about this before SL even
[22:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, I recall seeing that movie on MsT3K I think.
[22:32] Chraeloos: Sonitus, interesting
[22:32] Bryce Galbraith: That’s a good next question there Chrae.. how to adapt to immortality…
[22:32] Bryce Galbraith: For one… you may want to reconsider that life insurance policy…
[22:32] Chraeloos: Bryc,e yeah, if this works, then what?
[22:32] Violet: Since we’re kinda talking about sci-fi….I loved Dennis Danvers’ Bin series, which was sort of about how people end up dealing with immortality through a big SLish virtual world….
[22:32] Rory Torrance: makes me think of “red dwarf” and how frustrated rimmer was when he became a hologram…
[22:32] Chraeloos: Bryce, hahaha
[22:33] AnthonyE Staryk: would it make people be more accountable since they won’t die, eventually their actions will find them or vice versa…
[22:33] Violet: (Or reject it and learn to deal with mortality without it)
[22:33] Tricipian Serendipity: what about the opposite idea ; logans run comes to mind in that
[22:33] Bryce Galbraith: lol! Yeah, indeed Rory… that was a fun series too πŸ™‚
[22:33] Chraeloos: lol guys, Sci fi has dealt with this a bunch
[22:33] MusE Starsmith: “Better than Life” (Red Dwarf episode)
[22:33] Chraeloos: maybe we’d all have to get educated in sci fi
[22:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, I think, from what I’ve been hearing tonight, we all think that people *will* die, just lead a very long life
[22:33] Chraeloos: Anthony, maybe. Do you think so?
[22:33] Bikejoh: rhiannon why are you nakey
[22:34] MusE Starsmith: Oh yes, Logan’s Run! I’d be long dead by now!
[22:34] Chraeloos: Paul, the opposite idea of?
[22:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: We’ve addressed the breakdown of the human mind, problesm with personal identity, the problems to the species with immortality
[22:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: MusE, you’d be regenerated in carnival, don’t you know?
[22:35] AnthonyE Staryk: well…if people truly became immortal, that death was off the table…the concept of karma comes to mind, consequences for ones actions…the world is only so big, there’s only so many places you can hide out or move too
[22:35] Tricipian Serendipity: not all would be able to live foreveer; us plebes would be killed off at 25 say hehe
[22:35] MusE Starsmith: so they tell me…but it would not be MEEEEEE, Rhia lol
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: Can you see some folks being offered an option for radical life extension and saying … ‘no thanks’ ?
[22:35] Chraeloos: Anthony, yeah, if you believe in that. Others might act like teenagers for the rest of their lives
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: Ah, well, there’s that too Tri…
[22:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, I read a SF story where a couple fled the Earth, as the government made immortality compulsory
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: immortality for some…
[22:35] Tricipian Serendipity: they already do chrae hehe
[22:35] Chraeloos: Bryce, yeah me
[22:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: They were on a primitive planet, where’d they live out a natural lifespan
[22:35] Violet: Initially, out of fear, Bryce, yeah….in the longer run, I don’t know. I think most people prefer life to the alternatives.
[22:35] AnthonyE Staryk: they might Chrae, others would surely tire of them…then what?
[22:36] Violet: I’d imagine some people would choose not to extend their lives. There are always some people who do anything πŸ™‚
[22:36] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose the devil is in the details, when it comes to immortality .. what are the conditions?
[22:36] Chraeloos: Violet, I wouldn’t do it out of fear. I just don’t think we should live that long. Our minds and bodies are only meant for so long. the universe has other plans for other species. nothing should exist forever.
[22:36] Tricipian Serendipity: i would want to know at what age you life is extended in
[22:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: musE, which raises the point–aren’t people really saying they want their Egos to be immortal? Not their bodies?
[22:36] AnthonyE Staryk: what if there wasn’t a choice? γ‹‘ what if the immortality virus got out and infected everyone?
[22:36] Bryce Galbraith: getting to live forever but only as a head in a fishtank doesn’t sound that awesome..
[22:36] Tricipian Serendipity: to live for ever old would not be fun hehe
[22:36] Chraeloos: Anthony, exactly. What do you do then? Shoot them into space with a cannon?
[22:37] MusE Starsmith: exactly, Bryce! and what is the POINT? Isn’t renewing resources (including human creativity) a good thing?
[22:37] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, exactly Tri…
[22:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, exactly; i think we’ve actually decided tonight that death is not only inevitable, but a good thing.
[22:37] Violet: Leonard Nemoy seems to enjoy it, Bryce :p
[22:37] AnthonyE Staryk: maybe Chrae. How do we currently get people to conform to social norms?
[22:37] Chraeloos: Anthony, then we dont have a choice, haha
[22:37] Sonitus Randt: Depends on the state of their sex lives, rhi
[22:37] Bryce Galbraith: lol! Violet πŸ™‚
[22:37] Tricipian Serendipity: extending the natural life span i think is more possible and more practical
[22:37] Tricipian Serendipity: but only again if we improve the conditins of life on earth
[22:37] Bryce GalbraithBryce Galbraith remembers the scene of Leonard Nimoys head being fed fish food…
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, which I think is probably more ego than libido, Anthony
[22:38] XTC: death is not a good thing for those of us with a consciousness
[22:38] Violet: I’m not a fan of death…or aging, disease, entropy in general. I’m all for figuring out how to turn it around…
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Don’t ask me why I put Anthony at the end of that
[22:38] MusE Starsmith: Sonitus, aren’t you cheeky tonight! °͜°
[22:38] Chraeloos: Anthony, some places by death, others by jails, and eventual reentry into society. Or we lock them up in an asylum.
[22:38] Tricipian Serendipity: we all have withiin us the ability to live longer than e do
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Violet, oh, that’s easy–just reverse Time’s Arrow
[22:38] Bryce Galbraith: Now, if I could live forever with a nicely attuned and fully capable human body… that’s a different story…
[22:38] harmoniasophia Scribe: I find it as madness for something that is immortal to contrive ann idea immortality as being something he is not – its like sententcing its self to an everlasting prison
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, but again–would it be you after a while?
[22:38] Chraeloos: XTC< why?
[22:39] Tricipian Serendipity: yes if i could be a hot stud for a few hundred years that would b cool bryce hehe
[22:39] AnthonyE Staryk: or we condition them…or drug them…or control them through economic means…
[22:39] Violet: I’ll have to catch it first, Rhi…it always seems to be just ahead of me πŸ˜›
[22:39] Bryce Galbraith: Harmonia — did you mean your first ‘immortal’ to be ‘mortal’ ?
[22:39] Chraeloos: Paul, Bryce, lolol
[22:39] Chraeloos: Rhi, we are always changing based on our experiences, though. Whats the difference?
[22:39] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — even now I’m not the same me that I was 5, 10, 20 years ago ..
[22:40] Chraeloos: Anthony, right, so would that work long term? They’re invincible, after all
[22:40] Bryce Galbraith: and I won’t be the same person in another 5, 10, or 20 years…
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, the difference would be the continuity of memory involved in the experience of the “I”
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: If that continuity isn’t there, then in what sense does the “I” continue?
[22:40] Bryce Galbraith: and that’s cool… the possibility of being able to continually reinvent myself is pretty exciting really.
[22:40] Chraeloos: Rhi, why wouldn’t there be continuity?
[22:40] MusE Starsmith: You can have that hot body forever right here in SL!
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, there is still the continuity of the “I”.
[22:40] AnthonyE Staryk: or maybe Society would have to get more creative with its solutions
[22:40] Chraeloos: lol Muse!
[22:40] Tricipian Serendipity: but we dont know how long they live muse hehe
[22:40] harmoniasophia Scribe: without something already existing then the image of itself could no exist
[22:41] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, Chrae, if we take memory coninuity as the basis of personal identity, after 900 years would there be a straight line of memory from her to me?
[22:41] harmoniasophia Scribe: so yes sort of Bryce
[22:41] Tricipian Serendipity: no one in sl is older than 9 lol; that is not even a human life span yet hehe
[22:41] Violet: If only I could mute my butt when it starts to hurt, Muse…
[22:41] Chraeloos: Harm, can you expand on that please?
[22:41] Chraeloos: Rhi, why not? I already don’t ahve a straight line of memory, and I’m pretty young…ehem…lol
[22:41] MusE Starsmith: lol Violet…trying to imagine muted butt…
[22:41] Chraeloos: Paul, lol true
[22:41] Chraeloos: Violet, lol
[22:41] Rory Torrance: criminy ive never been linear
[22:42] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose if you get tired of living you simply self terminate… if you are digital you can delete yourself…
[22:42] Chraeloos: Rory, me either
[22:42] Chraeloos: Bryce, oh good point. But what if you cant?
[22:42] Chraeloos: who would have control over that?
[22:42] Chraeloos: what if hte power went out?
[22:42] Chraeloos: ohoh
[22:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, but that’s exactly my point. And if tht line gets attenuated over the~centuries~is there continuity of self?
[22:42] Bryce Galbraith: Chrae — another option that effectively achieves the same result sorta — an option to wipe out your memory and start over
[22:42] Chraeloos: Rhia, why not? Are you still the same person if you get alzheimers?
[22:42] harmoniasophia Scribe: the image we identify with is a thought – without an I am to think then thinking would be moot Chrae – thoughts have a source
[22:42] Rory Torrance: id sure like to give it a try and find out
[22:43] Chraeloos: Bryce, yeah maybe. Would that be worth it though?
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, if not memory, what is the line of continuity here?
[22:43] Violet: That’s why you tie a string to your quarters and cheat the suicide booth….just in case πŸ™‚
[22:43] MusE Starsmith: I’d need me a darned good backup generator
[22:43] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — I suspect the ‘self’ would snap at some point πŸ˜‰
[22:43] AnthonyE Staryk: what of an immortal with MPD? dfoes 900s years suddently become chunks of different “personalities”?
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not your body.
[22:43] Chraeloos: Harm, definitely. LIke in Robert J Sawyers recent series “Wake”
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: If you’ve changed bodies, and you have no memory continuity, then who are you?
[22:43] Rory Torrance: if you dont remember your early childhood, are you the same person you were?
[22:43] Chraeloos: Rhi, exactly. Consciousness? Personality?
[22:43] Bryce Galbraith: It’s no wonder immortality is a rich area for sci-fi πŸ™‚
[22:43] Tricipian Serendipity: yes rory bc something in that still is who we are °͜°
[22:43] Chraeloos: Muse, lolol agreed
[22:44] Rory Torrance: i think so too
[22:44] harmoniasophia Scribe: I havent seen or heard of “Wake”
[22:44] Rory Torrance: even if we dont exactly recall
[22:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, well, we can say it of you, as there is physical continuity. But if now “you’re” a hologram, or in a robotic body, then how do we justify saying that?
[22:44] Bryce Galbraith: I think that’s kind of an interesting concept .. the discontinuity of self…
[22:44] Chraeloos: Rory, exactly.
[22:44] Chraeloos: If I gain a year, I lose one.
[22:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thanks, Bryce
[22:44] MusE Starsmith: there is conscious, recallable memory, and also partially or totally inaccessible memory
[22:44] Bryce Galbraith: Yes, thank you Rhi, I feel like I have a new toy to play with πŸ™‚
[22:44] Violet: Identity hiccups?
[22:44] Tricipian Serendipity: anyone see that movie “in Time” had justin timberlake; time was currency
[22:44] Sonitus Randt: Also, even if you don’t remember childhood, you might retain habitual ways of thinking, behaving
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: that’s a great phrase Violet!
[22:45] Violet: πŸ™‚
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: ‘identity hiccups’
[22:45] AnthonyE Staryk: Total Recall the remake opens on the 10th of August…that alone is a deep exploration of memory and personality…about individual perceptions and “reality”
[22:45] Chraeloos: Harm, its a sci fi series, about a blind girl who gets a mechanical implant that lets her see, and she ends up being able to communicate with an entity that was “born” in the internet, that realizes its conscious
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: I am so keeping a transcript of this discussion…
[22:45] Chraeloos: Violet, lol!
[22:45] Rhiannon of the Birds: Identity hiccoughs? I like that.
[22:45] Tricipian Serendipity: remake is nothing like the original too ant.
[22:45] Violet: Lain!
[22:45] AnthonyE Staryk: I know 😦
[22:46] Tricipian Serendipity: too many remakes in the movies thsi year 😦
[22:46] Chraeloos: Bryce, me too
[22:46] Bryce Galbraith: Lain — now there’s an interesting anime!
[22:46] AnthonyE Staryk: Hollyweird is tapped out for storylines…
[22:46] Chraeloos: Does anyone mind if I stick this on my blog? I can edit out names
[22:46] Tricipian Serendipity: hollyweird hehe °͜°
[22:46] Violet: Sure, Chrae
[22:46] MusE Starsmith: Oh, interesting, Chrae. They were dealing with machine entities in the last few episodes of “Eureka”
[22:46] Chraeloos: lol Paul, Anthony
[22:46] Rory Torrance: no prob
[22:46] AnthonyE Staryk: sure Chrae
[22:46] Bryce Galbraith: I would sort of like it if somebody remade Lain …. but so that it cohered a bit more and made sense. I wonder if that would ‘break’ it though?
[22:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: you can keep my name, Chrae. And sure.
[22:46] MusE Starsmith: ok Chrae, but give us the link, please
[22:46] Chraeloos: Muse, oh cool, I don’t have TV anymore, so I dunno
[22:47] Sonitus Randt: fine with me chrae
[22:47] Chraeloos: Muse, I sure will, can send it through the group
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: i will give my permision with one condition attached chrae °͜°
[22:47] Chraeloos: Paul, yes?
[22:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Just remember, she’s a lady, Paul
[22:47] harmoniasophia Scribe: the world is a place whose purpose is to be a home where those who claim they do not know themselves can come to question what it is they are. And they will come again until they learn it is impossible to doubt yourself, and not to be aware of what you are.
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: you must also put this on our forum °͜°
[22:47] Chraeloos: lolol Rhi
[22:47] Chraeloos: Paul, oh yeah no problem!
[22:47] Violet: I think that’d kinda break it for me, Bryce….but I think the plot is actually really fascinating, once you figure it out enough, so maybe just something separate that followed similar ideas?
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: (looks to muse to post the link for that)
[22:47] Bryce Galbraith: For those of you not familiar, ‘Lain’ is a ref to ‘Serial Experiments Lain’, an anime series from I guess the late 1990s…
[22:47] MusE Starsmith: oh ok…coming up
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity:
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: πŸ˜›
[22:47] Chraeloos: Harm, interesting. So we are projections of something else?
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: got it
[22:48] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah… I think I agree Violet…
[22:48] Violet: Although the writer/director was working on a sorta-remake/reboot thing set in the 30s, that got cancelled…
[22:48] Chraeloos: Bryce, thanks didn;t know that
[22:48] Violet: If that counts πŸ™‚
[22:48] Chraeloos: OK, so it seems like none of us really want to be immortal…am I wrong?
[22:48] harmoniasophia Scribe: the projection is nothing – we are something else who believe the projection is our self – misdentified – thus dissociated and dislaced
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: Um, I think I’d like to be immortal…
[22:49] harmoniasophia Scribe: displaced
[22:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, most of us are reconciled to not being immortal, let’s put it that way
[22:49] AnthonyE Staryk: There was a book I read years back about AI…the story was “When H.A.R.L.I.E was One” and it’s about an AI that builds G.O.D. (Graphical Omniscient Device) that contains all knowledge of the planet that’s accessible so that it can explore existence and sentience, as the scientist that creates HARLIE is unable to answer many of his deeper questions…
[22:49] Sonitus Randt: don’t know chare, first i need to get a few hundred years under my belt
[22:49] Chraeloos: Harm, ok, I think I can follow that
[22:49] Violet: I’d like to be…I’m just not sure if it’s totally feasible
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: … if really faced with not existing anymore…
[22:49] MusE Starsmith: (Tricipia Forum:
[22:49] Chraeloos: Rhi, yeah
[22:49] Sonitus Randt: might be fun, might suck
[22:49] Chraeloos: Anthony, interesting
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: Ah, yeah, I think Rhi put it better… I agree, we’re pretty much doomed to die eventually.
[22:49] Violet: But I like existing. It’s what I’m best at doing!
[22:49] Chraeloos: Sonitus, lol sounds fair, but what if you cant back out afterwards?
[22:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, like V’jer coming home to get from it’s Creator the answer to why it was created.
[22:49] Tricipian Serendipity: joining and visiting the forum is invited to all too btw °͜°
[22:50] Tricipian Serendipity: its sparse but i am sure you can change that °͜°
[22:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: Have you sent that in a NC to us, Paul. I will not remember the website after I leave here.
[22:50] Chraeloos: Paul, we can try!
[22:50] Tricipian Serendipity: i think its on the weekly nc you all get πŸ˜›
[22:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’ll be up all night instead thinking, “I’m gonna die; I’m gonna die; I’m gonna die.”
[22:50] Chraeloos: indeed it is
[22:50] Chraeloos: Rhi, aw haha
[22:51] MusE Starsmith: < balks at the thought of having a few hundred years under anyone’s belt, including own…
[22:51] Tricipian Serendipity: yes muse! lol
[22:51] Chraeloos: Muse, well its apparently possible with chinese mediicne….XD and qi gong
[22:51] AnthonyE Staryk: it ends with the gov’t shutting the system down, but by then it’s too late, HARLIE has already spread across the Internet and shows up once to the scientist that created him to let him know he’s still around, but hiding…and leaves it wide open from there….
[22:51] Tricipian Serendipity: the 34 i have had so far has been plenty hehe
[22:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’ve understood a lot of things since being in SL–like reincarnation, as many people I meet in SL think that I’ve been here before in another shape or form
[22:51] Sage Hartmann: I think what would be cooler than immortality would be thte ability to merge and split our identities with others. Then there would still be cross-hybridization in ideas and identities, but also continuity in all our experiences.
[22:51] Chraeloos: Rhi, you have, lolol
[22:51] MusE Starsmith: snicker
[22:52] Chraeloos: Sage, that is really interesting
[22:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, et tu?
[22:52] Violet: I like that, Sage…
[22:52] Chraeloos: Sage, I still don’t think I’d want to. I’m weird, but don’t want to show people how *really* weird I am, lolol
[22:52] MusE Starsmith: trippy, Sage
[22:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sage, now, thjat’s a very interesting tought
[22:52] Violet: …and there was another interesting anime sort of with that concept…Kaiba
[22:52] Chraeloos: Rhi, haha I had to think about that one. πŸ˜› I may be Canadian but I’m not French!
[22:52] AnthonyE Staryk: what if you could transfer your “consciousness” into another body? like in Avatar or some of the other stories out there. that’s another form of immortality, is it not?
[22:52] Chraeloos: Anthony, I think thats this scientists idea
[22:52] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that would work Anthony…
[22:52] Tricipian Serendipity: the mercy chrae hehe
[22:53] Chraeloos: Paul, haha
[22:53] MusE Starsmith: That is a big “if” though, for me, Anthony…
[22:53] AnthonyE Staryk: damn I know the kinda upgrades I would be buckin for LOL
[22:53] Violet: Mm, Muse
[22:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well,in avatar, you were still connected to your original body–until the planet-spirit sent you to another body, anyway
[22:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: Which was supposed to be unusual
[22:53] Tricipian Serendipity: wow….
[22:53] harmoniasophia Scribe: one would be sorely disappointed to merge – if they believe they will discover more variety
[22:53] Chraeloos: So, do you think its worth it to support this guy in his research? Or is it a waste of money?
[22:53] Bryce Galbraith: I kinda like the solution they had in Doctor Who — that is, you ‘regenerate’.. but your personality and body alter quite a bit, but you do have memories of earlier selves..
[22:53] Rory Torrance: i have done a lot of experimenting with cellular automata and i think i agree with wolfram, it strongly suggests a sort of conservation of information in any physical universe, and besides, in an infinite universe all patterns would repeat endlessly anyway, so it may well be that we all have avatars and incarnations scattered throughout space and time… perhaps we are psychically connected to them, experience them in our dreams..
[22:53] Sage Hartmann: Re: merging/splitting, for instance, there might be a couple dozen keypointes in the brain where if we wired up to someone else who was somewhat similar, we could cooperatively navigate memory/identity integration. And then perhaps do a clone of our consciousness if we decided we wanted to specialize.
[22:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, actually, even in an infinite universe or an eternal recurrence, it doesn’t follow that all patterns repeat.
[22:54] Violet: That seems ideal, Bryce….you keep the continuity of self while also keeping the diversity and creativity of new life. Cake and eating it.
[22:54] Rory Torrance: well repeat with variations perhaps like a fractal
[22:54] Chraeloos: Rory, I love the topic of cellular automata. I think its a good possibility
[22:54] Rory Torrance: not repeat exactly
[22:54] Tricipian Serendipity: what if there are only ever a finite number of patersn that can rhi?
[22:54] AnthonyE Staryk: wouldn’t an infinite universe have infinite patterns?
[22:54] harmoniasophia Scribe: no
[22:55] harmoniasophia Scribe: a cicular gives the impression of infinity – but its an illusive deception
[22:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: Paul, I forget who, but a mathematicians showed that there is no necessity to the repeat. It was a nice myth of Nietzche’s, but has no basis in reality
[22:55] AnthonyE Staryk: ummm…then by definition, it’s not infinite….
[22:55] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, indeed Violet … and you can change out actors πŸ˜‰
[22:55] Tricipian Serendipity: i disagree rhi
[22:55] Violet: lol
[22:55] harmoniasophia Scribe: all patterns are ultimately circles
[22:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Paul, you disagree with me? What a surprise
[22:56] Chraeloos: harm, aren’t we all circles?
[22:56] Rory Torrance: i suspect the universe contains all possible variations but who knows
[22:56] Chraeloos: lol Rhi
[22:56] MusE Starsmith: spiral within circle gets my vote lol
[22:56] Chraeloos: ouzozo or whatever its called lol
[22:56] harmoniasophia Scribe: the projection is circular Xhrae – our real self is not
[22:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, it’s just not a necessity that it does.
[22:56] Tricipian Serendipity: yes no maybe is the going to have to be the cooomon dynamic
[22:56] MusE Starsmith: Rhia lol, it just NEVER happens!
[22:56] harmoniasophia Scribe: Chrae
[22:56] Chraeloos: Harm, why not?
[22:56] Violet: I suspect the universe has less idea of what it’s doing than I do, really
[22:56] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, I agree Violet…
[22:56] Tricipian Serendipity: no reality i think can exist
[22:56] Violet: And I’m just winging it πŸ™‚
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: probably the shape of the universe is a corkscrew πŸ˜‰
[22:57] Rory Torrance: i do think its a spiral
[22:57] MusE Starsmith: in that case, Bryce, who’s bringing the wine?
[22:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, you saying the universe is just some being’s way of removing the cork from His champagne?
[22:57] AnthonyE Staryk: how ironic, we finite beings with finite minds, wax about infinity….a paradox….
[22:57] Tricipian Serendipity: without these 3 core “principles”
[22:57] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds locks eyes with MusE
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: I’d be happy to MusE πŸ™‚
[22:57] Chraeloos: Mmm, Wine hahaha
[22:57] harmoniasophia Scribe: creation expands – it procreates – patterns recreate – they are stuck in a circle
[22:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, you sure you aren’t French?
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: Yes Rhi — at least I sincerely hope so!
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: Actually, as a ‘Purpose’ of the universe goes, that one actually makes me happiest πŸ™‚
[22:58] Chraeloos: Rhi, nope. A bit German, Flemish even, British, but thats about it as far as I know.
[22:58] Chraeloos: hahaha
[22:58] Bryce Galbraith: The Purpose of the Universe is open a grand bottle of Champagne!
[22:58] Violet: πŸ™‚ that’s pretty Vonnegutian, I think, Bryce
[22:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, back to your question, Chrae; I think, like all research, it should be funded by those who believe in it
[22:58] Violet: I like it
[22:58] MusE Starsmith: ok! we have a bar that has wine above the gallery currently showing the work of Rory (cue shameless promotion)
[22:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: And not by those who don’t
[22:58] Tricipian Serendipity: i dont see it as a paradox ant.
[22:58] Bryce Galbraith: Thank you Violet… I wasn’t even trying that time either πŸ˜‰
[22:58] Violet: πŸ™‚
[22:58] Rory Torrance: lol
[22:58] Rory Torrance: thanks muse
[22:58] Chraeloos: Muse, haha great!
[22:58] MusE Starsmith: πŸ˜‰
[22:58] Chraeloos: I know where I’ll be, hahaha
[22:59] MusE Starsmith: Vonnegutian, my new favorite term!
[22:59] Chraeloos: Ok guys, thats the hour! Thanks so much for coming! Great ideas! If you would like to see more events like this please leave a donation in the bowl between Violet and Sonitus, in the back. Have a great night everyone!
[22:59] Chraeloos: See you all next week, same time, same place πŸ™‚
[22:59] AnthonyE Staryk: be well everyone
[22:59] Violet: Thanks, Chrae, g’night πŸ™‚
[22:59] Chraeloos: lol Muse
[22:59] Rory Torrance: a pleasure
[22:59] MusE Starsmith: Chrae! wow, thanks! ’twas a fast hour!
[23:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: nite, Violet
[23:00] Tricipian Serendipity: ty for hosting chrae ; good topic good turn out °͜°
[23:00] Chraeloos: Sure was!
[23:00] harmoniasophia Scribe: how can one speak of what one does not know – if one does not know it?
[23:00] Sonitus Randt: thanks for hosting chare, enjoyed this a lot
[23:00] Chraeloos: Great Turnout!
[23:00] TC Discussion Deck: Another great tip donated! Thank you for your support!!
[23:00] TC Discussion Deck: The tip jar is located in the back πŸ™‚ donations appreciated πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚
[23:00] Rory Torrance: good ol vonnegut
[23:00] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Sonitus, vVi, everyone
[23:00] Chraeloos: Harm, you speak of it now
[23:00] AnthonyE Staryk:
[23:00] Bryce Galbraith: thank you for hosting Chrae!
[23:00] Chraeloos: Thank you Bryce!

The Fight Between Religions in Early Chinese History

The following is a quote from Joseph Campbell’s “The Masks of God: Oriental Mythology”. It pertains strongly to the TCM discussions I’ve been hosting, and may go into the notes for next week. Anyway, interesting material. Most of us in the west are unaware of the struggle between Buddhism and Taoism in the early ages, and how it really helped define the two separate systems.

The learned clergy of the Taoism church, that year of the victory, 844, in the ninth moon, issued to the Palace the following summa contra gentiles and pontifical request:

“The Buddha was born amog the western barbarians and taught “non-birth.” “Non-birth” is simply death. He converted men to Nirvana, but Nirvana is death. He talked much of impermanence, pain, and emptiness, which are particularly weird doctrines. He did not understand the principles of spontaneity and immortality.

Lao Tzu, the Supreme, we hear, was born in China. In the Tsung-p’ing-t’ai-lo Heaven he roamed about and spontaneously and naturally became transformed. He concocted an elixir and, taking it, attained immortality and became one of the realm of spirits and produced great benefit without limit.

We ask that a terrace of the immortals be erected in the palace where we may purify our bodies and mount to the heavenly mists and roam about the nine heavens and, with blessings for the masses and long life for the Emperor, long preserve the pleasures of immortality.”

The emperor mounted twice to the top of the terrace. The first time, he wished to see a man pushed off, and when the individual ordered to give the shove demurred, he received twenty strokes of the cane on his back. The second time, wondering about the Taoist priests, he said, “Twice We have mounted the terrace, but not a single one of you, Ou lords, has as yet mounted to Immortality. What does this mean?”

To which the witty Taoist priests replied, “Because Buddhhism exists alongside of Taoism in the land,Β li (“sorrow”) and ch’i Β (“breath”) are in excess, blocking the way of the immortal. Therefore, it is impossible to mount to immortality.

After this, the Emperor wanted to kill all the monks and nuns, but was advised to send them back to their “places of origin to perform the local corvee.”

Buddhism in China never recovered from the blow of 841-845. It survived along with popular Taoism largely on the level of a crude folk religion, no longer developing, only serving in its own way the perennial needs of family and community life, providing colourful ceremonies for occasions of birth, marriage, and death; symbolic games to mark the passage and particular qualities of the seasons; solace for those sad and weary; mythic goals beyond, for those with none here; archaic answers to undeveloped questions about the mysteries of being; a literature of marvel’ and supernatural backing for parental and governmental authority.

Specifically, the Chinese rendition of those services derives from the background of the Bronze Age and in that sense can be said indeed to represent in the modern world – along with India – a past of five thousand years. THe basic level is that of the toiling, beautiful “lower” people of the patient earth. However, in contrast to the peasantry of India and of much of Europe, the Chinese were not in the deep past people of the soil. They were nomads of a race developed (apparently) in the northernmost habitable Arctic, who came south after the Glacial Age and displaces whatever people had preceded them. IN their cults we find an interesting, characteristic combination of neolithic fertility elements, reverence for ancestors, etc., with an emphatically shamanistic factor. The phenomenon of possession is conspicuous throughout the Mongoloid terrain, both in private and in public cult. It serves to supplement divination as a means of learning – and even influencing – the will of the unseen. It supplements, also, the family cult of devotion to the ancestors, which is under the charge, fundamentally, not of the shaman, but of the paterfamilias. In Chinese thought the idea of the ancestor is on the one hand linked to the noble termsΒ Ti, Shang Ti, and T’ien, which have been generally translated “God,” but on the other to such terms as shen, “spirits,” and kuei, “ghosts.” The sphere of the shaman is properly the latter. The sphere of the paterfamilias centres about the family cult of his own ancestral line. And the sphere of the imperial cult is a development of the familial, wich accretions front he shamanistic: the ancestral line of the emperor (the son of heaven) having been identified, practically, with “the deified being (ti)Β above (shang),” Shang Ti.

In relation to the cult of birth and death, two soul-like principles are recognized: the first,Β p’o (written with the character for “white” and that for “daemon,” i.e., “white ghost”), is produced at the time of conception; the second,Β hun (written with the character for “clouds” and that for “daemon,” i.e., “cloud daemon”), is joined to the p’o at the moment of birth, when the light-world is entered front he dark. The p’o in later thought was identified with the yin, the hun with the yang. At death, the p’o remains in the tomb with the corpse for three years (compare Egyptian Ba) and then descends to the Yellow Springs; or, if not set at rest it may return as a kuei, a ghost. On the other hand, the hun, which partakes of the principle of light, ascends to heaven, becoming a shen, a spirit.

It is now believed that the two terms Shang Ti (Lord Above) and T’ien (Heaven) derive from the periods, respectively, of the Shang and the Chou dynasties. The former term suggest a personality. The latter tends to the impersonal. Both imply a will, the will of heaven. However, this will is conceived, in accordance with the formula of the hieratic city state, in the way of a mathematically structured cosmic order (maat, me, rta, dharma, tao).Β And as everything in the history of Chinese thought and civilization shows, the realization of this order has been the chief concern of the Middle Kingdom, from the ages of its first appearance. Fundamentally, the idea is that he individual (microcosm), society (mesocosm), and the universe of heaven and earth (macrocosm), form an indissoluble unit, and that the well-being of all depends upon their mutual harmonization. As in INdia, so in China, there is no notion of an absolute creation of the world. IN contrast, however, to INdia, where an accent is given to the dissolution-recreation motif, in China the main thought is of the present aspect of the world. And ins read of a systematic sequence of four recurrent ages, ever growing worse, China presents in The Book of Changes a guide to the nuance of the present moment. Correspondingly — as Professor Joseph Kitagawa succinctly remarks — “How to realize Tao,” more than “What is Tao?” is the problem that has been the chief concern of the Chinese — superstitious masses and lofty philosophers alike.

And again in contrast to India, where a theoretically static system of caste represents the social aspect of the cosmic order and the individual is oriented to his duties by way of his broad caste alignment, in China the family and immediate kinship alignment dominates, and not devotion to a god but filial piety is the focal sentiment of the system.

Thus it is that the Chinese religion – to cite once again Professor Kitagawa – never made a distinction between the sacred and the secular. “The religious ethos of the Chinese,” he writes, “must be found in the midst of their ordinary everyday life more than in their ceremonial activities, though the latter should not be ignored. The meaning of life was sought in the whole life, and not confined to any section of it called religious.”

Following the orgy of Wu-tsung, the Buddhist community in China convalesced, and there developed what can be termed, for our purpose at any rate, the final form of the Chinese mythic order. The T’ang Dynasty, whose monarchs supposed themselves to be descended from the mythical sage Lao Tzu, collapsed 906 AD, and after five decades of war lords (the so=called Five Dynasties), the politically weak but culturally wonderful Sung Dynasty arose (960-1279). Its founder sponsored the first printed edition of the Chinese Buddhist scriptures and its second monarch built a huge Buddhist stupa in the capital. Ch’an Buddhism, which, in one branch at least, namely that inspired by Hui-neng, had stepped away from the monastic ideal, was the chief Buddhist influence among the literati, and as a kind of synthesis of the Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucian vocabularies, Neo-Confusianism came into being.

“The ultimate purpose of Buddhism,” states Dr. Fung Yu-lan, “is to teach men how to achieve Buddhahood…LIkewise, the ultimate purpose of Neo-Confucianism is to teach how to achieve Confucian Sagehood. The difference between the Buddha of Buddhism and the Sage of Neo-Confucianism is that while the Buddha must promote his spiritual cultivation outside of society and the human world, the Sage must do so within these human bonds. The most important development in Chinese Buddhism was its attempt to depreciate the otherworldliness of original Buddhism. This attempt came close to success when the Ch’an Masters stated that “in carrying water and chopping firewood, therein lies the wonderful Tao.” But…they did not push this idea to its logical conclusion by saying that in serving one’s family ant the state, therein also lies the wonderful Tao.”

And herein, we can see the natural emergence of the China alive today. Interesting, how much influence the coming out of Buddhism had on the entire Chinese society. Perhaps we can see mirrors of this in the west in the late 20th/early 21st Centuries?

Philosophy and Literature @ E&S

Today’s discussion about whether Hume was influenced by Buddhism started out really slow, but we had about 10 people show up randomly throughout. It was decided as a majority that since Hume was introduced to Buddhism while writing his “Treatise”, the Buddhist philosophy would have solidified his ideas rather than change them.

Next week, I’m trying something a bit new. The discussion topic will be based on an article, that you can find in my Google docs (since I seem to have lost the original link, although had downloaded the PDF). It is viewable only if you go to it through a link that is provided below. Please, read the article before you come to the discussion, as I will not have detailed intro notes. Of course, if you don’t manage to read it, do feel free to come to the discussion anyway and comment, although you may have many questions.

The article is called, “The Myth of the Beginning of Time” by Gabriele Veneziano, and you can find it at this link:Β

Let me know what you think of the idea of using Google docs to share PDFs. I haven’t tried it before, so if you have any troubles feel free to let me know! Also, feel free to share the link with your friends, just make sure you copy/paste from the link above, and not the browser address.

Hope to see you all there!

Hume and Buddhism Intro Notes Mar 20 2012

Topic: Hume and Buddhism

As proposed by Alison Gopnik (

More reading:

Gopnik suggests “the possibility that Hume’s account of personal identity/the self was influenced (indirectly) by Buddhist thought.”

Ippolito Desideri was an Italian Jesuit, who was sent to Tibet to convert the Buddhists there to Christianity.

After spending five years studying the language, religion and philosophy he was returned home. On his way home he stopped in at the college of La Flèche, where Hume stayed while writing the <i>Treatise on Human Nature</i>.

A short summary of Hume:

-He suggested that desire, rather than reason, governed human behaviour.

-He believed that human’s had knowledge only of things they directly experienced, rather than innate knowledge.

-He believed that humans had no conception of the self, only sensation associated with the self linked together by causation and resemblance.

-It has been suggested that Hume has rejected the idea of self altogether.

This is where Buddhism comes in.

When Desideri was at La Flèche, he became quite friendly with a man by the last name Dolu. Hume was known to interact with Dolu, years later.

Dolu, took part in the “Malabar Rights Controversy” – a debate whether Indigenous religious practices could be used alongside Christian missionary rites.

Some people involved in this debate suggested that it was the only way to have the two groups co-exist, or even to have the Indigenous people stick around.

This may be where he became familiar with the Buddhist ideas of “emptiness” and “no self”.

Hume is known to have written about Buddhist beliefs in his later works, “Of Miracles” and his “Natural History”.

He states, “Some nations of been discovered, who entertained no sentiments of religion…excessive penances of the Brachmans and the Talapoins.”

Here, he has grouped together the Indian Hindu and Siamese Buddhist practices.

The theory that Gopnik suggests, is that Hume, when writing his “Treatise” was aware, and even influenced by Buddhist thought.

If this is true, it would have been highly controversial in his time (not that he already wasn’t) because very few people were accepting of Buddhist thought.

Would this change the way we view Hume now?

Do you think that Hume’s philosophy was based on Buddhist thought, and if so, how does would that affect the religions of today?

I open the floor.

Steve Jobs, Lao Tzu, and Goethe

The following are some great quotes I’ve come across, thanks to a certain friend.

β€œNothing is more revolting than the majority; for it consists of few vigorous predecessors, of knaves who accommodate themselves, of weak people who assimilate themselves, and the mass that toddles after them without knowing in the least what it wants”
– Goethe

β€œYour time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of other’s opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”
– Steve Jobs

The other day, I was at a discussion about a passage from the Tao:
“In pursuit of knowledge, every day something is added. In the practice of the Tao, every day something is dropped.
Less and less do you need to force things, until finally you arrive at non-action. When nothing is done, nothing is left undone. True mastery can be gained by letting things go their own way.
It can’t be gained by interfering.”

In IM, my friend and I got talking about it and this was what he said. I have to say I agree completely, and it seems that many people forget this about Lao Tzu.

In response:
“Well, realize that Lao Tzu is discussing the Te. He’s not saying you shouldn’t do anything. He’s saying you should do everything as if it were nothing (not in a narcissistic sense, but in the sense that all things are easily done).”

Just wanted to share, thanks for reading!

Corona Anatine Lecture Transcript Mar 11 2012

The lecture today went quite well. Corona was unaware of daylight savings time though, so she was an hour late, which was kind of expected (everything in SL was late today). So, instead, I held an impromptu live poetry reading. It went very well. More people were able to come to it than the lecture. But, anyway, the lecture transcript can be found below:

[13:03] Chraeloos: Thanks to everyone for coming! I’ll ask that all comments and questions are held until after the lecture, when we open the floor for discussion. If you like what you hear and/or want to support in-world events, feel free to tip. The tip jar is the globe in the centre of the fireplace.
[13:03] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events:
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date:
Event Calendar:
If you want an invite to the group let me know πŸ™‚
[13:03] Chraeloos: Also, we just released a new magazine! You can download it for free here:
[13:03] Chraeloos: Thanks Corona, it’s all yours πŸ™‚
[13:06] Corona Anatine: ok a bit of background first
[13:06] Corona Anatine: this talk only looks at the developments up to the end of the Old Kingdom
[13:07] Corona Anatine: and will need breaking down into more than one week
[13:07] Corona Anatine: Developments in Ancient Egyptian funerary structures and mummification procedure to the end of the sixth dynasty
[13:07] Corona Anatine: I will assume people know the difference between upper and lower egypt -if not say now
[13:08] Karlingo Lorefield: raises hand
[13:08] Corona Anatine: and i will briefly cover that
[13:08] Karlingo Lorefield: “im naive”
[13:08] Karlingo Lorefield: had my head stuck in japanese books all my life, so go ahead pls.
[13:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, upper is lower down on the map and lower is higher up on the map
[13:08] Corona Anatine: ok upper egypt is the region of the nile valley as far north as the delta
[13:08] Corona Anatine: lower is the delta region
[13:08] Karlingo Lorefield: ok
[13:08] Corona Anatine: the two were originally different nations
[13:09] Corona Anatine: that were unified at the start of the Old Kingdom
[13:09] Corona Anatine: this would be long after the civilization i postulate as existing several millennia earlier
[13:10] Corona Anatine: although some relics form then may have still be around
[13:10] Corona Anatine: but this This is the historical / archaeology based Ancient Egypt
And I will concentrate on the standard model in the main
[13:10] Corona Anatine: The differential preservation of tombs and contents due to their desert location away from valuable agricultural land together with the collection preferences of early antiquarians; has meant that most surviving material culture of ancient egypt is related to or derived from funerary structures.
[13:11] Corona Anatine: In contrast to domestic settlement structures which were normally along the Nile have been built over by the many centuries of subsequent development.
[13:11] You have added “Mormon Tabernacle” to your Landmarks folder.
[13:12] Corona Anatine: The quantity of funerary remains and structures; together with the undisturbed nature of non valuable materials, and the environmental equilibrium allow the phases of tomb development to be traced traced from earliest times.
[13:12] Corona Anatine: The tomb development history reveals a complex sequence up to the first intermediate period with many changes stemming from political manoeuvring between the king and the priesthood over royal attempts to retain distinctiveness of burial .
[13:13] Corona Anatine: In the early period through to the Old kingdom there were continual changes and improvements in tomb construction, culminating in the building of the pyramid tombs of the sixth dynasty,
[13:14] Corona Anatine: After which the first intermediate period saw a major break in social stability with endemic tomb robbery. To which the Egyptians of the Middle kingdom responded to by turning more to use of hidden rock cut tombs.
[13:15] Corona Anatine: The earliest inhabitants of Egypt were Neanderthals [ according to one source anyway]
[13:15] Corona Anatine: [ which i don’t have details of – this was written from a univ library back in 95]
[13:15] Corona Anatine: Of these few graves are known as , even thought burying their dead, they did so without definite ceremony or grave goods . Of graves in the main period of predynastic burials , most come from Upper Egypt, with few known from central areas of Lower/delta Egypt, possibly because the bodies were sunk into marsh pools, or exposed for scavenger consumption.
[13:16] Corona Anatine: perhaps even devoted to such animals in a similar way to Himalayan sky burial.
[13:16] Corona Anatine: [ for example this recent item of news= ]
[13:18] Corona Anatine: The early Nile dwellers clearly believed in an afterlife, as predynastic burials often contain grave goods . moreover the bodies themselves were frequently wrapped in skins or matting, and crouched on the left side as if asleep and awaiting the rebirth often alluded to in texts of much later date.
[13:19] Corona Anatine: Only the higher status members of the community received formal burial, and according to one source few women and children.
[13:19] Corona Anatine: It is unlikely however that the majority of the dead were merely thrown into the fields or the river β€˜as the beasts of the field that perish” as they would not have been perceived as inferior by their social peers, whatever the views of the higher classes.
[13:20] Corona Anatine: Inhumation in fields and cemeteries attached to settlements being sufficient to account for their lack of survival
[13:20] Corona Anatine: body exposure of the sort in the news item would also account for this
[13:21] Corona Anatine: assuming that the practice was the same further south
[13:21] Corona Anatine: Richer burials surviving more often due to placement in the desert nearer to the west, the lands of the gods and ancestors [ probably the same thing in many cases]
[13:22] Corona Anatine: While no two graves were ever identical in all respects, they do shows trends in general
[13:22] Corona Anatine: The typology of graves and associated goods/customs of predynastic burials are conventionally divided into 3 main phases
[13:22] Corona Anatine: Badarian 5500 to 4000 BCE
[13:23] Corona Anatine: .
[13:23] Corona Anatine: Amratean / Naqada I 4000 to 3500 BCE
[13:23] Corona Anatine: .
[13:23] Corona Anatine: Gerzean / Naqada II 3500 to 3100 BCE
[13:23] Corona Anatine: .
[13:23] Corona Anatine: [Calibrated 14C dates]
[13:23] sofa cushion whispers: Hi DaVinci Batista! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[13:24] Corona Anatine: The graves rarely have any surviving superstructure, and where existing it is limited to a simple piled tumulus of sand or gravel backfill
[13:24] Corona Anatine: Badarian graves of Upper Egypt were usually sited on a low bank alongside a dry and often small wadi.
[13:25] Corona Anatine: At first shallow, burials deepened to around 1 metre as the Badarian progressed
[13:25] Corona Anatine: Graves for women were normally oval, those for men rectangular,
[13:25] Corona Anatine: Both dug into the sand or gravel at the desert edge
They were always single occupant pits just large enough for a flexed and tightly contracted unclothed body
[13:26] Corona Anatine: with concave floors, or
[13:26] Corona Anatine: levelled if a wealthier occupant
[13:27] Corona Anatine: Occasionally a layer of clean sand was added
[13:27] Corona Anatine: while some also had a basic wicker palisade set along the sides to retain loose soil
[13:28] Corona Anatine: This basic pit grave effectively persisted in use for the poorest burials right through to the end of the new Kingdom and beyond
[13:29] Corona Anatine: Inhumations were usually loosely wrapped in a reed mat
[13:29] Corona Anatine: linen folds
[13:29] Corona Anatine: or a goat skin
[13:30] Corona Anatine: A similar mat or tray lining the base and partway up the sides which was then folded back over the body and any grave goods
[13:31] Corona Anatine: Normally bodies were buried with the head to west
[13:31] Corona Anatine: although this was not universal west of the Nile
[13:32] Corona Anatine: Female Badarian graves are noticeably larger
[13:32] Corona Anatine: although only males had exclusive cemetery areas [ and then only for some axiomatically]
[13:33] Corona Anatine: and only richer burials had grave gods
[13:33] Corona Anatine: goods*
[13:33] Corona Anatine: at first consisting of a single ceramic cup
[13:34] Corona Anatine: usually placed near the hands or head
[13:34] Corona Anatine: Later the quantity increased, some including models and illustrations of boats
[13:35] Corona Anatine: But most only had pottery and personal items
[13:35] Corona Anatine: in lower Egypt burials were generally closer to dwellings
[13:35] Corona Anatine: eg at merimda
[13:36] Corona Anatine: where an earlier cemetery of Badarian/early Amratean date
[13:36] Corona Anatine: built distant from habitation
[13:36] Corona Anatine: was overlain by settlement expansion
[13:37] Corona Anatine: Cemeteries on unused land were probably fairly common in the earliest periods
[13:37] Corona Anatine: being built over or converted to agricultural use as the population expanded
[13:40] Corona Anatine: The Merimda
[13:40] Corona Anatine: dead were mostly crouched burials
[13:40] Corona Anatine: In reed lined graves but without funerary equipment
[13:41] Corona Anatine: Some graves , mostly of children were dug into house floors inhumed with the head towards the hearth
[13:41] sofa cushion whispers: Hi Gilles Kuhn! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[13:42] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[13:42] Corona Anatine: In the Amratean / Naqada I graves became larger and progressively deeper
[13:43] Corona Anatine: and some were now protected with a lining of clay brick , wooden boards or wattle-work
[13:43] Karlingo Lorefield: Corona…
[13:43] Karlingo Lorefield: what is wattle-work?
[13:43] Corona Anatine: wicker and daub
[13:43] Karlingo Lorefield: gotcha, thank you.
[13:43] Corona Anatine: like african of celtic british huts
[13:44] Corona Anatine: *or
[13:44] Corona Anatine: Some had a roof of matting supported on wooden poles
[13:44] Corona Anatine: others used stone slabs
[13:44] Corona Anatine: while occasionally richer burials were in rock cut chambers
[13:45] Corona Anatine: With some graves a recess was added , enlarged in later burials
[13:46] Corona Anatine: the recess often concealed by a row of 8-12 tall jars
[13:46] Corona Anatine: arranged on the north side,
[13:46] Corona Anatine: containing burnt offerings ashes and food items
[13:47] Corona Anatine: [ not clear from my notes / essay if it is the recess or the jars that held these]
[13:47] Corona Anatine: the practice continuing until the early Old Kingdom
[13:48] Corona Anatine: the amratean saw development of some multiple burials of 2-5 individuals
[13:48] Corona Anatine: possibly family groups
[13:49] Corona Anatine: There is also evidence suggesting ossary practices
[13:49] Corona Anatine: hands and skulls often being absent
[13:49] Corona Anatine: and replaced with containers of ostrich egg or pottery or laid on or near the body
[13:50] Corona Anatine: Other graves have skeletal elements inverted misplaced or sorted by type
[13:50] Corona Anatine: Missing skulls are also known
[13:50] Corona Anatine: usually from female burials
[13:51] Corona Anatine: Some having the neck placed against the back wall of the grave recess
[13:51] Corona Anatine: in others the skull was placed on a brick or stone pile
[13:51] Corona Anatine: Several bodies reveal a two stage process
[13:52] Gilles Kuhn: you are still speaking of pre dynastic tombs?
[13:52] Corona Anatine: with burial until skeletal
[13:52] Corona Anatine: then disinterred cleaned and dismembered followed by reburial
[13:53] Corona Anatine: Many of these practices continued until late in the old Kingdom
[13:53] Corona Anatine: where they are possibly referred to in the pyramid text expression
[13:53] Corona Anatine: ” place the bones together”
[13:54] Corona Anatine: In the Amratean the number of grave goods also increased
[13:54] Corona Anatine: especially ceramics which were often of poor manufacture
[13:55] Corona Anatine: suggesting production especially for burial use
[13:55] Corona Anatine: The quantity of items led to larger tombs to accommodate the increases
[13:56] Corona Anatine: while the increased wealth in richer burials
[13:56] Corona Anatine: increased the incidence of grave robbing
[13:56] Corona Anatine: resulting in a further deepening of the burial pit to compensate
[13:56] Corona Anatine: until they required several steps down
[13:57] Corona Anatine: In the Gerzean and protodynastic [ Semainean]
[13:57] Corona Anatine: richer graves continued to increase in size
[13:58] Corona Anatine: and become up to 3 metres deep
[13:58] Corona Anatine: with some chambers lined with clay brick or wood
[13:58] Corona Anatine: some also being provided with a wooden roof
[13:59] Corona Anatine: Many bodies were supplied with a thick mud coating or a wooden coffin was used
[14:00] Corona Anatine: at other times the huddled body was placed under or inside a large terracotta vase
[14:00] Corona Anatine: sometimes with a second vase inverted to form a lid
[14:00] Corona Anatine: a method which continued in use up to the fifth Dynasty
[14:00] Corona Anatine: although rare after the third
[14:01] Corona Anatine: The use of such jars suggesting that he dead were now seen as requiring space and/or air in the tomb
[14:02] Corona Anatine: 905 of Gerzean burial were single
[14:02] Corona Anatine: with a greater proportion of child graves
[14:02] Corona Anatine: these were generally richer
[14:02] Corona Anatine: [ presumably the rich had more options to do so]
[14:03] Corona Anatine: and burials of all ages now tended to be wrapped in linen or fibre
[14:03] Corona Anatine: Towards the end of the period store rooms were added to some superstructures
[14:04] Corona Anatine: In the later Old kingdom this type of tomb began to be copied in poor burials
[14:04] Corona Anatine: however this was the maximum reached at the lower end of the social scale
[14:05] Corona Anatine: ok that takes us to the start of the Old kingdom
[14:05] Corona Anatine: so i will continue there next time
[14:05] Bryce Galbraith: thanks Corona!
[14:05] Chraeloos: Great job Corona, thanks!
[14:05] Corona Anatine: ty
[14:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: THANK YOU!
[14:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: THAT WAS AWESOME, AS USUAL
[14:06] darcon Xue: Thank you Corona love πŸ™‚
[14:06] Bryce Galbraith: One question — are most graves to the west of the Nile? I think I remember something about that from a class I had once…
[14:06] Corona Anatine: I think they are yes
[14:06] Corona Anatine: as the land of the ancestors was seen as being to the west
[14:07] Corona Anatine: which may be an indication that they migrated from that area
[14:07] Rhiannon of the Birds: hi Vulcan!
[14:07] Bryce Galbraith: okay… and that’s where the sun sets too… not sure if that is significant or not, but seems like it would…
[14:07] Gilles Kuhn: too could you precise the time of the type of burials style you exposed i presume some of them were pre dynastic as well?
[14:07] Chraeloos: Hi Vulcan
[14:07] Corona Anatine: perhaps settling into the nile valley when the Sahara dried up and became infertile
[14:08] Bryce Galbraith: Corona, there was also a term you used — ossary practices — I’m not familiar with that. What was ossary practices?
[14:08] Corona Anatine: practices associated with bone other than burial
[14:09] Gilles Kuhn: its a form of art which was perfected by the mongols later…
[14:09] Corona Anatine: rearranging the bones in some other place
[14:09] Bryce Galbraith: ah, okay…
[14:10] Corona Anatine: superb avi btw gilles
[14:10] Corona Anatine: very appropriate
[14:10] Gilles Kuhn: i couldn’t resist indeed
[14:10] Bryce Galbraith: πŸ™‚
[14:10] Corona Anatine: lol Anpu himself
[14:10] Gilles Kuhn: Anubis you mean?
[14:10] Chraeloos: lol Gilles, love it
[14:10] Corona Anatine: if you use the greek spelling yes
[14:11] Gilles Kuhn: i do
[14:11] Corona Anatine: anpu was the Kemic spelling
[14:11] Gilles Kuhn: i am not familiar with it
[14:11] Corona Anatine: it was likely pronounced ‘anubis’
[14:12] Corona Anatine: talking of which – one of my pet theories concerns pronunciation/spelling
[14:12] Gilles Kuhn: well the greek have weird pronunciation their sheep didn’t say baaaaah but viiiiiii …..
[14:12] Corona Anatine: concerning ‘Thoth’
[14:12] Corona Anatine: which in the kem is tehuti
[14:13] Corona Anatine: or djeheuti
[14:13] Chraeloos: interesting
[14:13] Corona Anatine: which is possibly pron -Dj-hu- fi-
[14:13] Corona Anatine: or maybe even Dj ho-fa
[14:14] Corona Anatine: lol just a thought i have
[14:14] Corona Anatine: tho curiously
[14:14] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[14:14] Corona Anatine: one of the titles of Jehovah is ‘ judge of all the world’
[14:15] Corona Anatine: which was a title of thoth
[14:15] Corona Anatine: as it was thoth who recorded the judgement in the book of judgement
[14:15] Corona Anatine: but i digress
[14:16] Bryce Galbraith: πŸ™‚
[14:16] Bryce Galbraith: well, thanks for the presentation… I should get going.
[14:17] Bryce Galbraith: Just a question — is 1pm going to be the new time? or back to noon next week?
[14:17] Corona Anatine: ok
[14:18] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose I can find out next week too πŸ™‚
[14:18] Chraeloos: Noon next week
[14:18] Bryce Galbraith: ah, okay… thanks πŸ™‚
[14:18] Chraeloos: sorry, am being bombarded with IMs
[14:18] Chraeloos: Yeah, it’ll be noon as regular as long as they happen, unless otherwise noticed.