Corona Anatine Lecture Jan 29 Transcript

The topic was the emergence, invention, and evolution of religion and magic. A controversial topic, one that was held over in the discussion afterwards. About a dozen people came. This lecture is part one of an ongoing series, as the topic is quite broad. Come join us next week for part two! Transcript below:

[12:05] Corona Anatine: right a brief bit of background
[12:05] Corona Anatine: those late will miss
[12:06] Corona Anatine: this is from a long essay i did at Univ
[12:06] Corona Anatine: for my BSc- that was in 1994 – so some of this may be out of date
[12:06] Corona Anatine: but it was the result of about 15 weeks compilation of notes
[12:07] Chraeloos: wow Corona, that’s intense
[12:07] Corona Anatine: i will also be including references – however they wont be in the chat – but i can supply any on request
[12:07] Tara Li: Notecard?
[12:08] Tara LiTara Li wants to learn Bene Geserit Religious Engineering.
[12:08] Corona Anatine: can but it has many and would take about an hour to type them all
[12:08] Tara Li: Ahh – ok – never mind.
[12:08] Corona Anatine: so requests for specifics would be easier all round
[12:08] Corona Anatine: but yes i can make a notecard
[12:08] Tara LiTara Li just has this urge to try to know everything.
[12:09] Corona Anatine: thirdly this is part one – the topic is vast and easier if split over two or more weeks
[12:10] Of Oz: Careful, Tara. Thats the same as nothing…
[12:10] Tara Li: Well – yeah, Of!
[12:10] Corona Anatine: ok -some notes on the invention and evolution of religion and magic
[12:10] Chraeloos: Alright, so we’ll get started. Just so everyone is aware, comments and questions should be held until after the lecture when the discussion is open. Transcript will be posted at the blog: Thanks for coming and enjoy!
[12:10] Chraeloos: Hi Adam
[12:10] Tara LiTara Li knows too much already – the only way to solve the problem is to wrap around.
[12:11] Of Oz: or get reborn,Tara
[12:11] Corona Anatine: one sec
[12:11] Corona Anatine: In the historic period a myriad of religions have arisen and faded, with a similar fleetingness to empires.,
[12:11] Tara Li: That’s kinda risky – I might get reborn as someone who knows as much as I do.
[12:11] Corona Anatine: As all religions ultimately stem from the human imaginations concerning the supernatural; it is of interest to require how, when and why such beliefs were invented.
[12:11] Of Oz: usual rebirth system involves lots of lovely forgetting, T
[12:12] Corona Anatine: No system of belief is likely to have existed in the social groups of australopithecines, or probably even of Homo Erectus, [although there is a reference to chimpanzees shouting at the sky when their was a storm. But that would not be proof of religion, only that storm’s annoy chimpanzees]
[12:12] Corona Anatine: It follows therefore that sometime in-between then and now, the fictions behind ritual and religion were formulated.
[12:12] Corona Anatine: G.E. Swanson [1966 pg1] suggests that all such ideas arise in human perceptions and experiences of the surrounding natural environment.
[12:13] Corona Anatine: Knowledge of beliefs shows they do not persist in isolation. As a result the forces which produce and support belief will be present, along with the derived belief system.
What is uncertain and unclear is whether the beliefs are now engineered by the same experiences as those which produced them in the past. [G.E. Swanson 1966 pg5]
[12:13] Corona Anatine: Information concerning belief systems of modern populations is obtainable from direct questioning or from documentary sources. Written texts also being available for earlier belief systems and their development. Even if not always possessing clarity of details. For prehistoric periods such sources are entirely absent. The only way to obtain knowledge is from physical traces of rituals and ceremonies.
[12:13] Corona Anatine: How would such rituals be recognizable? This requires that ritual is first defined. It is probably accurate to state that beliefs and magic were formerly integral to everyday life, as they are derived from everyday experiences.
Clear definitions are given by R. Merrifield [1987 pg 6]
[12:14] Corona Anatine: Religion: Belief in supernatural or spiritual concepts or entities. Religion also incorporates explanations of the place and origin of all things; people, animals and the material world, as well as supernatural. Religion also holds the body of mythology and legends in its function of recording information. Religion itself tends to be a passive force followed by the majority of the population, among whom it serves as a force for social order and cohesion [ and later coercion]
[12:15] Corona Anatine: Magic: Practices intended to control the supernatural forces and entities with the aim of influencing events. Magic is therefore an active task.
Control of the forces requiring magic power and ability.
[12:15] Corona Anatine: This has four consequences.
[12:15] Corona Anatine: I] Only a select few tend to perform magic, from shaman and vola to prophet. Their historical importance depending on the amount of support they gather and/or desire
[12:16] Corona Anatine: II] Some form of selection process occurs, either self selection, or selection by supernatural, which means in effective reality the previous generation of magic practitioners.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: III] Those with power tend to be separated from mainstream society and activities to a greater or lesser degree; possibly even living physically remote.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: IV] The practitioners tend to be those in the population who have greater wisdom, from greater than average intellect and/or age.
Such people tending to be the main driving force behind all religions.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Ritual: “prescribed or customary behaviour that may be religious, magical or social in function, ….something of all three functions possibly being discernible in a single ritual activity” Merrifield [1987 pg 6].
[12:17] Corona Anatine: For archaeological purposes ritual would be recognizable as an assemblage or context of material items or traces of activity which is not purely utilitarian or economic in purpose. This immediately raises the problem that, as only the material traces of ritual are left, any ritual recognized, however outlandish it seems, might be purely social in origin, with no magico-religious elements involved.
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Even then the ritual elements in an assemblage must actually be recognized as such. This is not aided by our ignorance concerning the context and function of many artefacts, particularly of the Palaeolithic. G Richards [1987 p114
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Moreover it is likely that the earliest types of ritual involved only non material or non preserving elements. The non material elements of ritual often being the most important.
It is even possible that Palaeolithic humans had no magico-religious beliefs whatsoever, even after even after rituals become recognizable. However although this is possible, it is unlikely for several reasons.
[12:18] Corona Anatine: I] All human groups, of whatever technological level; whether historical or modern have some form of magico-religious dimension to their world view. This must have originated at some point in time. Such universality suggests that magic beliefs are basic to human mental processes
[12:18] Corona Anatine: [this has been shown to be the case since 94]
[12:19] Corona Anatine: II ] Development of belief systems probably originated at around the same time as the radiation and expansion of other aspects of culture such as art technology and language. In fact, while mastery of technology required full understanding of the problems involved, which meant development was necessarily relatively slow, belief systems have no such problem.
[12:19] Corona Anatine: Beliefs need only be thought up and can progress to conceptual maturity in a single lifetime. Nor do beliefs have to be correct. If believed and explaining the focus of explanation adequately, magic and religion could arise rapidly, progressing and evolving without any need for valid proof.
[12:19] Corona Anatine: The first concepts probably derived from observations of connections and similarities, ultimately leading to the ideas behind Frazers two principles of magic. These often appear to be nonsensical for three reasons.
[12:20] Corona Anatine: i) Because the society holding such a belief has evolved since the idea or concept was first formulated or invented.
[12:20] Corona Anatine: II) The connection might not be obvious, or it might assume knowledge of the intermediate chain of connection.
[12:21] Corona Anatine: iii) The connection might have been seen in a supernatural reality, in a trance, dream, hallucinogenic state or other other condition which alters perception, such as illness or fever.
[12:21] Corona Anatine: for example in the case of Muhammad who experienced various medical symptoms according to the Hadith
[12:22] Corona Anatine: The existence of altered states of perception and hallucinations would also require explanation and be perceived as actually happening at some level of reality. This would result in development of ideas of a ‘spirit world’ related to but separate from, the physical world.
[12:22] Corona Anatine: If beliefs existed as seems likely, what form of systems would they have been present within. In order to construct a plausible picture of what Palaeolithic religion and magic might have been like, several things must be attempted.
[12:22] Corona Anatine: 1) Evaluation of the world which was experienced in the period, when people were first likely to have been sufficiently self aware to theorize concerning their world. In particular looking for worldwide universals of belief, which reflect extreme antiquity, stemming from fundamentals of the environment or the human mind, or from a common geographic origin following migrational diffusion.
[12:22] Corona Anatine: 2) Estimation of what their conclusions and explanations for the forces in the physical world might have been.
[12:23] Corona Anatine: 3) Examination of the archaeological material record to see what evidence of ritual is discernible.
[12:23] Corona Anatine: 4) Assessment of ethnographic material to see what belief systems are present among modern-day low technology human groups, and what natural and/or supernatural explanations for the physical world they have theorized. In particular looking for parallels between their material remains and those from the Palaeolithic.
[12:23] Corona Anatine: 5) Analysis and synthesis to reach a plausible theory of the nature of Palaeolithic belief systems and hence the origins of the invention of religion in general.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: 1 & 2 Evaluation of their world, and estimation of their beliefs.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: Most of the things, which are definable about the world known to Palaeolithic humans, are fairly basic and obvious; many of the points however make details in the Palaeolithic record more explainable. At least in relation to hunter-gatherer groups
[12:24] Corona Anatine: And these have to have been the sole state of existence for all groups, because even if you allow an advanced human civilization in the pleistocene, there has to have been a period before that in which they were not advanced.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: The population was probably of low density, with small bands of around 30 hunter-gatherers in a local area.
[12:25] Corona Anatine: They would have had a detailed knowledge of the characteristics of the biosphere around them. Possibly “incorporating animals into a vision of the world in which the boundaries between the natural and supernatural were not clearly defined” [A Levi-Gourhan 1972 pg 7]
[12:25] Corona Anatine: Most lived brief lives. The majority were dead by the age of 35, while only a minority of children would likely have survived beyond seven or so years, and hardly 1% survived past past 40 years A Burl 1989 pg13 [ these estimates have been revised upwards since I first quoted this but not greatly so ]
[12:26] Corona Anatine: The old man of Aix-la Chapelle being only in his thirties, yet his skeletal pathology suggested a male over 50.
[12:26] Corona Anatine: The high mortality had two consequences:
[12:26] Corona Anatine: a) Death was common and of unknown cause or destiny.
[12:26] Corona Anatine: b) As the old had long term memories and wisdom of experience before dying, it would seem like the dead had more knowledge.
[12:27] Corona Anatine: The recently dead would also be present in dreams, possibly suggesting that the dead returned. Dreams also perhaps suggesting that “ a dreamers spirit was able to leave the body and journey independently” [PJ Ucko and Grosenfield 1967 p120]
[12:27] Corona Anatine: Dreams are also subject to a variety of influences:
[12:27] Corona Anatine: the presence of THC receptors in the brain, which only seem to have this function, and they would have been present throughout our evolution.
T McKenna [1992] also suggests a role for psilocybins in human evolution.
[12:28] Corona Anatine: Lucid dreaming, enabling telepathy during sleep. This might well account for the trans-island conceptual transfer by food washing monkeys. If so it suggests the mechanism is very ancient in evolutionary terms.
Telepathy of some sort would also possibly explain how a dog could know the moment of of death of an elderly patient from several miles away.
[12:28] Corona Anatine: which a recent case has shown occurred
[12:28] Cosmic Carousel: food washing monkeys?
[12:29] Corona Anatine: the significance of dreams is also shown in the bible – where ALL the times YHVH manifests it is in dreams
[12:29] Corona Anatine: yeah i will find the article in a bit
[12:29] Corona Anatine: goes back to about 1990
[12:29] Corona Anatine: Dreams and thoughts are also affected by emotion and mood changes. P Shuttle and P Redgrove [1978] show that menstruation is known for this. Moreover “It has been shown that …external senses decline at menstruation, while interior bodily sensations apparently increase correspondingly” P Shuttle and P Redgrove [1978 p166]
[12:30] Corona Anatine: Some contemporary societies see this as making women “fraught with a strange power… a kind of shamanic or magic holiness, leading to ….prophetic fits and trances” P Shuttle and P Redgrove [1978 p65]
[12:30] Corona Anatine: This seems to have led to a worldwide custom/initiation of segregating women at menarche. M Eliade (1958a p42) which also seems to be a custom found only in matriarchal societies, M Eliade (1958a p44) male based ones tending to seclude women at every cycle, and not just the first.
[12:30] Corona Anatine: Hallucinations in general would bring out phosphenes; subconscious geometric images, apparently basic to the human neural system and visual cortex. These images are seen as dots, zig-zags and squiggles etc.
[12:30] Corona Anatine: Entoptic phenomena
[12:31] Corona Anatine: Where present in Palaeolithic decoration they may illustrate use of trance states and/or drug induced consciousness.
[12:31] Corona Anatine: The women themselves would be the source of all new population, and because the statistical population mean of menstrual cycles is 29 days a connection with the lunar cycle and the cycles of the tides would likely have suggested to them a link between water the moon and women.
[12:31] Corona Anatine: Moreover there would have been no obvious link between menstruation and sexual activity. As unlike with animals, menstruation and peak fertility do not coincide, nor are all humans fertile.
[12:32] Corona Anatine: This would have resulted in pregnancy being random and of mysterious origin. Many children are born blood covered. This, together with the occurrence of spontaneous loss of various fetal development stages may have suggested that children develop from nothing in female blood.
[12:32] Corona Anatine: This would have made it a magical substance in addition to the likely known fact that blood loss would weaken or kill.
[12:32] Corona Anatine: Furthermore there would be a further connection women=magic= blood, and it would also have been observed that any form of blood spilt would assist plant growth, especially by the women themselves. [men lacking a regular non-injurious supply. This would likely have helped in the task allocation by gender division, if women were seen as better at plant care than men.
[12:32] Corona Anatine: Additionally however menstruation after menarche or even before would be relatively rare except in in-fertile women, which may have supplied the imagined link – most menstruous women are infertile = pregnancy has been supernaturally withheld, = because the ‘spirits’ have been offended = menstruating women have offended the supernatural = women in that state are evil/bad.
[12:33] Corona Anatine: The development of awareness of such things is likely to have occurred around the period of expansion in other spheres of social activity at around 100,000 years bp.
[12:33] Corona Anatine: the ideas slowly growing into conscious thought rather than an abrupt invention
[12:33] Corona Anatine: 3 Examination of the Palaeolithic archaeological material evidence.
[12:34] Corona Anatine: Examination shows that the earliest signs of expressive, possibly ritual activity occurs at circa 200,000 to 300,000 bp, with the use of ochre pigment at Terra Amata, and the engraved ox rib from Peche de L’Aze.
[12:34] Corona Anatine: The main expansion however, occurs at the beginning of the Aurignacian period, simultaneously across large parts of Europe. This seems to have been a cultural phenomena however, rather than a biological or neurological one. [R White 1992 pg 74]
[12:34] Corona Anatine: [although that has been disputed since 94]
[12:34] Corona Anatine: The surviving material suggests a number of elements possibly reflecting traces of Palaeolithic ritual activities:
[12:35] Corona Anatine: [for these evening i am only going to cover the first of these
[12:35] Corona Anatine: and then only partially
[12:35] Corona Anatine: the continuation will be in part 2 next sunday
[12:36] Corona Anatine: a) Burial and treatment of human remains
[12:36] Corona Anatine: b) Use and repositioning of non human skeletal elements.
[12:36] Corona Anatine: c) Pigmentation of materials with red ochre.
[possibly of related significance to the fact that ‘Adam’ in hebrew means ‘red earth or clay’]
[12:37] Corona Anatine: d) Pictorial representation both parietal and mobiliarly, of several classes
i) Possible notational decoration.
ii) Geometric shapes and designs
iii) Dominance of horse and bison in cave art.
iv) ‘Venus’ images of female shape
v) Athropomorths. – ‘Shamen’ figures
Plus one or two other things in passing.
[12:37] Corona Anatine: Each section will both examine the evidence and compare it with ethnographic parallels and possible continuity, in order to collect the materials adjacently.
[12:37] Corona Anatine: a) Burial and treatment of remains.
[12:37] Corona Anatine: A few other species of higher mammals “show grief and some degree of concern for their recently dead, but ritual burials seem unique to humanity” [G Richards 1987 p285]
[12:38] Corona Anatine: Presumably the earliest hominids had a similar grief and concern. However the earliest known definitely intentional burials are of Mousterian Neanderthals.
[12:38] Corona Anatine: However the earliest burials were not necessarily by Neanderthals as the oldest known is the group burial of La Ferrasie [100 ka bp ] This burial lies at the very start of the period when early modern humans appear. But it does seem probable both because of the latitude, and the apparent lack of mixed race burials.
[12:38] Corona Anatine: There are not that many extant burials however and humans of either group might have avoided mixing their dead with those of another group, whether of the same race or not.
[12:39] Corona Anatine: Examination of the list of known burials shows that the main features of upper Palaeolithic burial are
[12:39] Corona Anatine: i) Frequent coverage of the body with red ochre. In some cases directly onto bone, indicating burial of fleshless or deliberately de-fleshed bone. Red ochre coverage becomes even more frequent as the Palaeolithic advances, suggesting the slow establishment of a ritual tradition
[12:39] Corona Anatine: However 100% coverage of burials is never reached, some burials never warranting red ochre coverage for some reason. Perhaps as simple as lack of the material or variation in micro-local traditions.
[12:40] Corona Anatine: ii) Orientation of the body. In the earlier Mousterian there is no preference for body orientation towards any compass direction. By the upper paleolithic in contrast there is an immediate and definite orientation of bodies with their head to the north or along a north-south axis. This is certainly deliberate and very probably ritual. There being no sanitary reason required beyond mere burial.
[12:40] Corona Anatine: North = 41
NE = 2
East = 0
SE = 0
South = 5
SW = 1
West = 1
NW = 5
[12:41] Corona Anatine: This shows a remarkably consistent practice through time, and across a broad geographic range
[12:41] Corona Anatine: the association of the south with younger ages and the north with older people also stands out
[12:42] Corona Anatine: [ a table shows this ]
[12:43] Corona Anatine: Al children also being on a N-S line with one older exception who could have been an adult of small stature or malnourished
[12:43] Corona Anatine: and there i will leave it for this week
[12:43] Corona Anatine: questions
[12:43] Violet: Thanks, Corona 🙂
[12:44] Chraeloos: Great Job Corona, thanks!
[12:44] Corona Anatine: yw
[12:44] Corona Anatine: ty
[12:44] Adam: Nice presentation Corona ^^
[12:44] Corona Anatine: there were not that many refs so i can write a notecard of them
[12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, thank you, Corona.
[12:44] Of Oz: thankyou
[12:44] Cosmic Carousel: ty 🙂
[12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Can I ask a question?
[12:45] Chraeloos: I think the idea is grand, it shows a good perspective. Some interesting points, too
[12:45] Chraeloos: Yes Rhi, go ahead
[12:45] Violet: Hi Paulo 🙂
[12:45] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot smiles
[12:45] Chraeloos: Hi Paolo
[12:45] Corona Anatine: sure
[12:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: It was a little ambiguous at part, esp. when you were talking of the spirit world, but I thought you might be making a metaphysical assumption that the tribes had got it wrong. That their metaphysics was wrong. Although you did make it seem like dreams and hallucinogens did reveal a reality to them
[12:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: So my question is what do you think of the metaphysics involved
[12:46] Paolo Rousselot: (they do)
[12:46] Corona Anatine: it would have done as far as they were concerned
[12:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: hi Paolo!
[12:46] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot waves at Rhi
[12:46] Paolo Rousselot: sorry I’m so late…
[12:47] Corona Anatine: whether this is an objective or subjective reality is a moot point and perhaps not really relevant – if they thought it was real then to them it was
[12:47] AdamAdam loves Rhi’s line of thought 🙂
[12:47] Chraeloos: No problem, you just missed the lecture. You can find the transcript later on the blog
[12:47] Paolo Rousselot: it was/is real
[12:47] Paolo Rousselot: been there
[12:47] Of Oz: I would like to take issue with something right at the start
[12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: ok, well, not a moot point, but I thought that it should be at least bracketed off for objectivity
[12:47] Corona Anatine: ok
[12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thank you
[12:48] Corona Anatine: it was taken form a university essay i did in my final year back in 94
[12:48] Of Oz: ” G.E. Swanson [1966 pg1] suggests that all such ideas arise in human perceptions and experiences of the surrounding natural environment.”
I don’t like the emphasis here. I think that it is above all “interior” experiences that shape our religious and mystical beliefs, and those of “religion founders” who stand proxy for those with none of their own. To be direct, down the ages countless individuals have had “personal meetings with God”, which have a profound effect on their subsequent viewpoints. A few founded religions. Probably ones who understood (remembered) less well than average lol.
[12:48] Corona Anatine: and has not been updated since then
[12:48] Corona Anatine: but it had to make a lot of coverage with few words
[12:49] Paolo Rousselot: similarities between experiences not including cultural differences in viewpoint?
[12:49] Corona Anatine: but it would still be part of the natural environment
[12:49] Corona Anatine: whether in dreams /visions or otherwise
[12:49] Violet: I have to be going…thank you, Corona. Take care, everyone 🙂
[12:50] Chraeloos: Thanks Violet, Take care!
[12:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, ty Corona an Chrae; I have to go; I’m visiting virtual ability to help my partner, who’s a stroke victim
[12:50] Cosmic Carousel: bye Violet
[12:50] Corona Anatine: even if you assume the existence of the supernatural or ‘god’ then it would still manifest via the natural environment
[12:50] Tara Li: Later, Violet!
[12:50] Of Oz: that stretches the concept of “natural environment” beyond usefulness ?
[12:50] Chraeloos: Thanks Rhia, take care!
[12:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: u 2
[12:50] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds waves at everyone
[12:50] Corona Anatine: the cultural differences exist yes
[12:50] Paolo Rousselot: have to take into account the “lens” of personal psychology through which the experience is viewed
[12:51] sofa cushion: Hi Chraeloos Resident! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[12:51] Paolo Rousselot: culture is a part of that
[12:51] Corona Anatine: but the original purpose of the essay was to examine the evidence for ritual in the Palaeolithic
[12:51] Of Oz: YES, Paolo, very true …It is a characteristic of the “meeting with God” that the heart of the experience cannot be verbalized or fully remembered (there is nothing to remember) and so the feelings of infinite significance are transferred by memory to incidentals, ancillary and peripheral aspects. Hence the establishment of belief systems, religions and cults with superficialities mistakenly taken as central.
[12:51] Corona Anatine: and for that cultural inferences have to be minimized
[12:51] Tara LiTara Li kinda wonders where the God Helmet plays into this – maybe gets mentioned in Pt 2?
[12:52] Paolo Rousselot: the personal experiences can be – and often are, remembered and experienced quite well
[12:52] Corona Anatine: god helmet?
[12:52] Corona Anatine: oh the god element
[12:52] Tara Li: *nods* Helmet with magnetic inductance probes on it.
[12:52] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot chuckles
[12:53] Tara Li: Induces a feeling of “immanence” in about 70% of the population, last I heard.
[12:53] Corona Anatine: its not – I’m looking at the material remains- the evidence for dreams and rituals ect – the actual gods and supernatural content were ignored
[12:53] Adam: 🙂 gtg, bye all
[12:53] Chraeloos: Thanks Adam, Take Care!
[12:53] Of Oz: “QUITE well” – exactly, well enough to misunderstand in the case of most religion founders lol
[12:53] Tara Li: Later, Adam!
[12:54] Tara Li: Not sure what you mean by God element.
[12:54] Paolo Rousselot: sufficient proximity to the unconscious produces imagery i.e. symbolism in the personal experience that is directly related to ancient myth
[12:54] Corona Anatine: the element of the religions and magic that incorporates ‘god’
[12:55] Tara Li: Ahhh… Ok.
[12:55] Corona Anatine: which is only a small fraction of religion and ritual
[12:55] Tara Li: *nods*
[12:55] Corona Anatine: look at the modern ones
[12:55] Tara Li: But the God Helmet suggests that there are electro-magnetic factors that can cause a belief in gods – creating a religion.
[12:55] Corona Anatine: they tend to be about human ancestors – prophets saints seers etc
[12:56] Corona Anatine: and or where they lived or did important things
[12:56] Of Oz: the point in this context is – to what extent do the religious beliefs adopted by a group originate in personal mystical experiences, either single or communal?
[12:56] Corona Anatine: not ‘god’
[12:56] Tara Li: Hum…
[12:56] Tara LiTara Li will re-read the transcript.
[12:56] Corona Anatine: i would say all
[12:56] Corona Anatine: in the earliest period of modern human culture
[12:56] Paolo Rousselot: Oz – I think the difficulty comes in when “religion” is entered into the “equation”
[12:57] Of Oz: I think they are a great influence, though later of course the possible original purity of the vision is diluted, perverted and abused almost out of existence
[12:57] Corona Anatine: to separate o religion form secular likely had no meaning
[12:57] Corona Anatine: again the bible highlights this – being told as it is by people of the time
[12:57] Of Oz: I think it has huge meaning, Corona
[12:57] Corona Anatine: it reflects their beliefs
[12:58] Paolo Rousselot: toss out the bible – it really has little relevance as it’s been so distorted over the ages
[12:58] Corona Anatine: and the majority of yhvh manifesting is in dreams
[12:58] Of Oz: these old books are almost all disgusting
[12:58] Corona Anatine: someone has a dream and calls a seer to interpret it
[12:59] Corona Anatine: if you read the bible carefully
[12:59] Corona Anatine: the only time YHVH appears is in dreams
[12:59] Corona Anatine: the rest is prophets talking ABOUT YHvh
[13:00] Corona Anatine: it is very shamanic in that regard
[13:00] Katarina Waco: I must go, time for RL. Bye all, thanks for the presentation, Corona.
[13:00] Corona Anatine: yw
[13:00] Chraeloos: Thanks Kat, take care
[13:00] Corona Anatine: thanks for listening
[13:01] Corona Anatine: ok i will send a note card of the ref used here to Chraeloos to post in groups
[13:01] Paolo Rousselot: Corona – just reading your profile statements – well said!
[13:01] Chraeloos: Alright everyone that’s the hour. If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events:
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date:
Thanks for coming!
[13:01] Corona Anatine: ty Paolo
[13:01] Corona Anatine: next week i will start where i ended this week
[13:02] Chraeloos: Yeah if anyone wants the notecard let me know and I’ll send it your way