Loving-kindness, Metta, Vulnerability, Compassion, and Bravery.


Or, in other words, how to love yourself and others.

Any being who’s experienced emotions knows that, instead of you experiencing the emotions, sometime your emotions are experiencing you. Many religions and philosophies throughout history have taught that we should learn to be a witness, stepping back and not letting our emotions get in the way of rational thinking. Some even go so far as to say that we should become friendly with our emotions, get to know them, and therefore come to know when they are arising, recognize what it is, and stop yourself from feeling it. What I’m wondering, is what happens if you stop yourself from feeling emotions? Despite the fact that it must be extremely hard if not impossible to not feel any emotions, if we have evolved as the only beings that can recognize that we are feeling an emotion, should we embrace this? I’m not saying that we should let ourselves become overwhelmed with our emotions, but be able to step aside and let them coexist with us.

One of the most basic emotions I can think of is fear. For millennia fear has warned prey that there is a predator close by. These days, humans tend to be the predators more often then not, but in many cases fear has saved lives. It is a basic instinct. I’d go so far as to say that it is necessary to the survival of any living being. So, if a negative emotion such as fear can be such a good thing, what other emotions are necessary? I’d argue that love is necessary, as without love we couldn’t exist together peacefully. (Some would argue here that you can’t feel love without having felt hate, but I’d like to politely disagree. In my studies of metta meditation (loving-kindness), I’ve come to learn that even in hate there can exist a certain kind of love. I could go into this in detail, but that’s a whole other entry). But, there are three other emotions that I think are also necessary (among, likely, others) that I’d like to go into here: vulnerability, bravery, and compassion.

In my understanding of vulnerability, which differs greatly from the common definition of ‘weakness’, it seems that a vulnerability is a place for growth, connection, and individuality. I’d go so far as to argue that without vulnerabilities we would all be the same. Most people think of a vulnerability as a potential for harm, either physical or emotional. But, it’s only a potential for harm if there is something to be harmed by. Some would argue here that death is a vulnerability – but this is not so, as we all die. There cannot be life without death – and this does not make us weak. If anything, this should make us stronger as we realize that our time on this plane is limited and that we should spend the time we have with our loved ones with as happy an outlook that we can. We all have suffering in our life that can either be caused from, or create vulnerabilities. But, suffering is inevitable as we live in physical bodies that manifest physical emotions that don’t always coincide with the emotions of others. In my own experience, all suffering that I’ve endured has taught me more, and opened me up to more than I ever would have experienced had I avoided the suffering. Because we are never the same people from one moment to the next, let alone one lifetime to the next, we can’t possibly avoid suffering. Our cells are continuously dying and birthing, rewriting itself and changing in minuscule ways. Our bodies are always aging, our minds always growing. If we can look at this cycle of life and death, suffering and growth, as a positive life experience, we can fully embrace ourselves and each other for the way we are – our true beings – without shame. In doing this, we are actually eliminating much of our suffering.

Which leads us to compassion. If all beings have even a slice of compassion in them, then there is no need for a vulnerability to be a weakness. Instead of being shameful of your vulnerabilities, let them show so that people can get to know who you are, and love you for who you are. A vulnerability could be a broken heart, a broken bone, a bullied soul, amongst various other things not even a fraction of which I could name here. All of these things do heal when given the proper environment. Compassion is that environment. To give compassion shows humbleness, selflessness, and empathy. To be able to receive compassion shows even greater strength and trust, as you are letting the person see your soul. With this connection, we are able to communicate clearly, have stronger relationships, and end suffering all over the world. And, when I say compassion, I don’t mean in the form of money. I mean, opening your heart to the suffering of others; realizing that they suffer just as you do, and allowing them to experience it however they may without judgement. Compassion is so strong an emotion, and an action, that even if you open if up to one person a day you’d be doing yourself a huge favor, and helping those around you, even if just by setting an example. You never know what people are going through, or why they are acting the way they are. Don’t take their actions personally, as most of the time they aren’t reacting to something you did, but rather projecting their feelings from something that happened earlier onto you.

This brings us to bravery. In order to surrender yourself to someone – showing them your vulnerabilities, sending out your compassion, and trusting them to treat you with compassion – shows great bravery and courage (I use these two words simultaneously, as I think that backing down from a battle shows just as great, if not greater bravery and courage than running into it head-first). By opening yourself to them you are placing trust into their hands and hoping they won’t throw it back at you or drop it to the ground to stomp on it. I can guarantee you that they will recognize this, even if they don’t know they do, and they will treat you with respect and trust in return. Now, everyone’s capacity for respect and trust is different, so it may not seem so obvious to you that they are reciprocating, but every time they are given the opportunity to grow into that compassion, vulnerable environment, they are given an extra pull up the mountain, where at the top lays true trust, respect, and friendship. An exercise I would like you to try in order to practice bravery is to look into the eyes of all the strangers that pass you with acceptance. Don’t judge them. Don’t assume that you know what they are going through or why they are acting the way they are. Don’t assume that they are judging you. Let there be a complete exchange of introductions – how you really want people to know you, “Hi, my name is _____ and I see the good in you, and accept you for who you are.” See what happens in return – how many people’s faces will soften, aura’s will shift, and how many true connections you can make. Now, this isn’t a contest – the number doesn’t matter – but you will be surprised how many people are looking desperately for that kind of acknowledgement and kindness. Be brave – stick your foot out first, and see how many people catch you.

If we can give and receive these three things we would have very strong, trusting, and safe relationships – be them love, friendship, family, or connections with complete strangers. If we can accept ourselves enough to let our vulnerabilities shine through, show compassion even when all we want to do is lash out, and do this all with courage – imagine how much happier we would be. If we embrace the practice of separating our selves from our emotions and stopping them from happening, how can we exist as a co-dependent species? If we can accept our emotions, recognize when they are arising and why, and learn to scoot over and let them have a seat on the pillow beside us, then we can have a conversation with them, instead of trying to become them.

What do you think?

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Secular Saturday Transcript Aug 4 2012


Below is a copy of the transcript form the August 4 Secular Saturday held at Tricipian Center at 10pmSLT. I got everyones permission to post this, and I didn’t edit out anyone’s names. Great discussion guys. Thank you!

[22:07] Chraeloos: Ok, well lets get started then. Welcome everyone to Secular Saturday! I’m so glad you could all make it 🙂 If you like what you see and want to see more please leave a donation, the bowl is in the back between Violet and Sonitus!
[22:07] Chraeloos: The topic today is the two links I put into chat before…
[22:07] Chraeloos: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/03/russian-mogul-soliciting-billonaires-to-achieve-immortality/
[22:07] Chraeloos: http://io9.com/5931388/immortality-by-2045-russian-scientists-think-its-possible
[22:08] Chraeloos: Basically, the story goes…
[22:08] Chraeloos: A Russian scientist has sent a letter to the Forbes list of richest people asking for them to give him money for a project he’s starting. He intends to have created a holographic human body for us to reside in by 2045, so that we can be immortal.
[22:08] Chraeloos: The stages of said process are as follows:
[22:09] Chraeloos: A: 2015 – 20 A robotic copy of a human body remotely controlled
[22:09] Chraeloos: B: 2020-2025 An avatar in which a human brain can be transplanted (and personality – soul?)
[22:10] Chraeloos: C: 2030-2035 An avatar in which an artificial brain exists and where a humans personality can be transferred
[22:10] Chraeloos: and D: 2040-2045 A holographic-like avatar
[22:11] Chraeloos: Some of the people are supporting him, some are not.
[22:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: Like the Doctor in Voyager, only he’s you.
[22:11] Chraeloos: What do you think?
[22:11] Rory Torrance: everyone always seem to think that artificial intelligence ought to be so easy, but man the progress has been more than disappointing. i wish them well but my feeling is no chance in hell
[22:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I think go for it. Get donations, do the work, see what happens
[22:11] Chraeloos: Rory, how no chance?
[22:11] Chraeloos: Rhia, what if it doesn’t? WHat happens to all that money?
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: It goes to support people who in turn buy things and support other people. Money is like energy–it never dies
[22:12] Bryce Galbraith: Chrae — that money will be in the Cayman Islands somewhere 😉
[22:12] Rory Torrance: they cant even make a computer think for itself, much less really copy a human consciousness
[22:12] Chraeloos: For those who came in late, we’re talking about these two articles: http://io9.com/5931388/immortality-by-2045-russian-scientists-think-its-possible and http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/03/russian-mogul-soliciting-billonaires-to-achieve-immortality/
[22:12] Chraeloos: Rhi, sometimes
[22:12] MarieEcho: i wonder how consciousness can be transplanted
[22:12] Chraeloos: Bryce, lol probably!
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, if you believe that the brain correlates with the mind, then you can create an artificial brain.
[22:12] Chraeloos: Rory, yeah, true
[22:12] Bryce Galbraith: Basically they’re going after the whole singularity thing…
[22:12] Rory Torrance: we are nowhere near really having a clue what consciousness is
[22:12] Violet: I think if you’re going to get super into a project like this, you’re going to hit a wall sooner or later with the question of how much awareness and physiology are tangled up…
[22:12] Chraeloos: Marie, what is consciousness?
[22:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, it’s no more of a problem than any other research that might fail
[22:13] Chraeloos: Bryce, yes. And Rhi, true – it must be physical to work
[22:13] Bryce Galbraith: The thing is, I think it would have been more realistic to go for a kind of ‘clinical immortality’… basically make existing bodies last a lot longer.
[22:13] Chraeloos: Violet, agreed
[22:13] Violet: Right, Bryce
[22:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, it’s not either…or. There are people working on that too
[22:13] Chraeloos: Rhi, true, but this may be one of the most expensive endeavors yet
[22:13] MusE Starsmith: Like cyborgs, Bryce?
[22:13] Bryce Galbraith: yes, that’s true Rhi…
[22:13] MarieEcho: emergent property from physical conditions in the brain, which i dont really understand either
[22:13] Chraeloos: Bryce, “a lot longer” isn’t forever, though
[22:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: That’s the beauty of private enterprise–you don’t have to appeal to a committee which might approve you this year and not approve you next year
[22:14] Rory Torrance: i bet the biological approach will succeed long before we have true artificial consciousness
[22:14] Bryce Galbraith: MusE — not like cyborgs… at least not what I’m thinking of.
[22:14] Violet: Good answer, Marie 🙂
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi, true lol
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, I agree with Arthur C. Clarke–Methuselah is probably the wall
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rory, why?
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi, whats that?
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: But can you imagine people going–oh, well, since I can only live to 900 at most, why bother with life extension?
[22:14] Chraeloos: Rhi lol true
[22:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, that the brain probably can’t take more than 900 years of experience
[22:15] XTC: …so who’s going to own me?
[22:15] Rory Torrance: because we understand the genetic mechanisms of death a little but, but we dont understand consciousness at all
[22:15] Violet: I think slowing down aging and advances in regenerative medicine are doable, eventually….but I really don’t know about stuff like consciousness transfer
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: In the past century the average lifespan has increased significantly just from things like improved sanitation, better medical care, improved diets, and such.
[22:15] AnthonyE Staryk: ever heard of Aubrey de Grey, he proposes that aging is disease, that can be “engineered” away…
[22:15] Chraeloos: XTC, Great question
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah.. that does ring a bell Anthony…
[22:15] Chraeloos: Rhia, oh good point. Is there a limit to our memories?
[22:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, that’s true, but the biblical three score and ten, four score if you’re really struggling, is the current average.
[22:15] MarieEcho: and what does it mean to live on, means to resume the same identity…if consicousness is preserved, then the identity is preserved too? thus lifespan gets longer?
[22:15] Bryce Galbraith: actually there’s somebody else that is making that argument too .. about aging being a disease.. but I can’t place her name.
[22:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s just that with good nutrition, clean conditions, medicines and, above all, wealth, that’s a democratic goal now
[22:15] Chraeloos: Violet, what makes it different than prolonging cell life?
[22:16] Violet: I know Aubrey deGrey is doing work there, Bryce
[22:16] XTC: aging isn’t a disease, its a state of mind
[22:16] Chraeloos: Bryce, very true, but a lot more people have memory degeneration
[22:16] AnthonyE Staryk: what happens when an immortal commits a crime, such as murder? gives a whole new concept to “life sentence”
[22:16] Chraeloos: Anthony, interesting
[22:16] MarieEcho: i am unsure if a holograph of a person means the person’s life is prelonged
[22:17] Violet: Prolonging cell life would be pretty useful, I think, Chrae…especially in stuff like anemias
[22:17] Chraeloos: XTC interesting, how so?
[22:17] Sonitus Randt: i wonder if, past a certain number of years, there might be a limit to what consciousness can tolerate, similar to the way we can’t stay awake for days and dayswithout hallucinating, etc. Is there an “awareness limit” before we see through to what reality really is?
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: Yes, Anthony…SciFi explores some of these themes, but we don’t really know.
[22:17] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, I think there was a Trilight Zone about that; the devil gives a man immortality. The guy’s wife, terrified, leaps to her death. He decides to take the rap for it so as to be electrocuted (he can’t die, remember?) His lawyers get him life instead. heh.
[22:17] Chraeloos: Marie, good point.
[22:17] Rory Torrance: even if you make a robot that behaves exactly like you do you really think that will be YOU in there?
[22:17] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, yes, Clark likened it to the mind being a palimsist
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: I don’t really see a POINT to extending life…why is longer better, if you’ll forgive me?
[22:17] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that’s true Chrae — we’ve extended life but revealed a lot of other problems associated with aging — alzheimers, dementia, various cancers, just the physical body wearing out.
[22:17] Chraeloos: Sonitus, interesting, so you’re suggesting that reality is separate from what we see now?
[22:17] MusE Starsmith: right, Rory…where/who/how/ is “me”?
[22:18] Bryce Galbraith: That’s where the challenge is… I suspect those are more tractable problems than trying to capture your mind and upload that into a computer to inhabit an avatar of some kind.
[22:18] Rory Torrance: yes indeed
[22:18] AnthonyE Staryk: what if aging is as XTC says simply a “state of mind”…a meme that we’ve all been infected with?
[22:18] Chraeloos: Rory, good question. Would it be?
[22:18] Violet: I think if consciousness is transferrable, that pretty much breaks our models of the universe….and if it’s only “copyable,” then blah. That’s just depressing 🙂
[22:18] Rory Torrance: i very much doubt it
[22:18] Rhiannon of the Birds: yes, there is a real problem in personal identity associated with longevity
[22:18] Sonitus Randt: I suggesting it might go deeper, rabbit hole like to…. where?
[22:18] Bryce Galbraith: Oh — I think I remember that episode of the Twilight Zone now Rhi!
[22:19] Chraeloos: Muse, I agree completely. If we’re immortal, what do we do when the planet dies? When our earth explodes? Float around in space? Whats powering our hologram?
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, if the mind is copyable–that raises issues of personal identity, but not if it’s transferable
[22:19] Sonitus Randt: Can opt out of immortality with suicide.
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, although much will slow down if we are immortal, maybe getting warp drive becomes the one priority for that reason. lol
[22:19] Chraeloos: Violet, lol depressing, I like that. like “its that simple?”
[22:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, unless they make opting out illegal and then they bring you back.
[22:19] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose our mind being copied would be a way of creating a clone of sorts.. the copy would then have its own existence from that point..
[22:20] Bryce Galbraith: It might be like the multiple ‘Agent Smiths’ in The Matrix 🙂
[22:20] MusE Starsmith: “Mind” and “identity” aren’t the same thing…
[22:20] Chraeloos: Sonitus, would we want to go there? How long do you have to be dead for htem to not be able to transfer?
[22:20] AnthonyE Staryk: your memories and your mind, your neural pathways may be duplicatible, does that means your awareness/consciousness is?
[22:20] Violet: I was thinking more like The Possibility of an Island….and all the future-me’s making mopey LiveJournal posts for eternity… 😛
[22:20] Chraeloos: Bryce, oh maybe haha
[22:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, or that Outer Limits which took place in a society that only allowed organ cloning; not whole body cloning; a couple of scientists did it anyway–something went wrong and this guy ended up with his wife and clone wife.
[22:20] harmoniasophia Scribe: could you expound on that Muse
[22:20] Violet: That’s where the wall is, I thin, Muse
[22:20] Chraeloos: Anthony, what do you think?
[22:21] Chraeloos: Violet, lol! I love livejournal…miss it a bit haha
[22:21] Bryce Galbraith: hmm… I don’t remember that Outer Limits episode.. was that the original series or the ‘New Outer Limits’ Rhi?
[22:21] Violet: I don’t really think awareness can be reduced…so dealing with it as a physical property is…hard to wrap my head around
[22:21] MusE Starsmith: Star Trek original, where they transferred some aliens’ minds into Spock, et al
[22:21] Rory Torrance: i cant think of the title but there was an old scifi novel by jack williamson about this guy who might as well be in hell because a company owns his pattern and they beam him all over the galaxy to do dangerous or fatal jobs, he is killed over and over and has to keep coming back… that kind of nonsense will be a real danger if they ever get this stuff to work
[22:21] Violet: 🙂 Chrae
[22:21] Rhiannon of the Birds: And clone wife had a download of first wife’s personality
[22:21] Chraeloos: Violet, I agree
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, right, I remember that series. He had an ‘elan’ or something
[22:22] Chraeloos: Rory, oh true. Would there be crime if we lived forever?
[22:22] Rory Torrance: cant recall exactly, its been a long time
[22:22] Violet: Hi Tri 🙂
[22:22] Bryce GalbraithBryce Galbraith is suddenly amused by the possible new avenues for social drama from having various clones of one’s self running about 😉
[22:22] Rory Torrance: i bet there would be whole new kinds of crime
[22:22] AnthonyE Staryk: I don’t believe that our consciousness is the same as the mind that is in our body. Since we are able to observe ourselves. Observe our thoughts arising out of the ether in our mind when in deep meditation, I think there’s something beyond the mind/brain in our bodies.
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: hi Paul!
[22:22] Chraeloos: Hey Pual!
[22:22] Chraeloos: lol Bryce!
[22:22] Bryce Galbraith: Oh! And maybe this is where we start adding numbers after our names to distinguish copies of an original! “Bryce Galbraith 43”
[22:22] Rory Torrance: yes i agree anthony
[22:22] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, I agree
[22:23] Chraeloos: Rory, probably. we get creative that way I fear
[22:23] XTC: namaste, paul
[22:23] MusE Starsmith: TY harmonia. Mind, to me is the “thing” we all share, our “selves” are made up of our physicality as well. We may exist without the body shell, but what exists isn’t the “us” we know.
[22:23] MarieEcho: i dont think making a clone of oneself prelongs that person’s life….he would die any way, only his repication, athe clone child lives on
[22:23] MusE Starsmith: Hi Paul
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: Hey Paul…
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that’s a good point Marie…
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, Bryce; like I have a series of alts with the first being Rhia007, the next will be 008, etc.
[22:23] Chraeloos: Bryce, hahaha I hope not. I don’t want to be a number in a system…oh wait we already are…;)
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Marie, yes, clones are survivors, like children.
[22:23] Bryce Galbraith: too late Chrae… that too has come to pass 🙂
[22:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s the same sense of immortality we have now
[22:23] AnthonyE Staryk: In that case, the trick becomes that element of humans that has yet to be defined, beyond, the recognition of 8 ozs less weight in a body after an individual has expired.
[22:24] Violet: And clones would become more susceptible to disease quicker than natural children
[22:24] harmoniasophia Scribe: interesting thoughts Muse
[22:24] Violet: So the line would get wiped out, anyway.
[22:24] Chraeloos: anthony, very true
[22:24] Chraeloos: Hey Paul!
[22:24] AnthonyE Staryk: cloning fails after a known number of iterations
[22:24] Violet: wb Tri
[22:24] Chraeloos: Violet, why?
[22:24] MusE Starsmith: WB Paul
[22:24] Rhiannon of the Birds: But if Clark is right, after a certain point, Methusalah will not have any direct memory links to his younger self–so in what sense is he the same person? Parfitt used that in his problems of personal identity
[22:24] Bryce Galbraith: On the subject of immortality, I remember now in Kim Stanley Robinson’s ‘Icehenge’ he portrayed a future human society that was starting to expand into the solar system, and along the way they achieve a kind of clinical immortality.
[22:24] Tricipian Serendipity: hi
[22:24] Chraeloos: Muse, very interesting. What makes you think that?
[22:24] Bryce Galbraith: You could still die from an accident and such…
[22:25] Violet: Well, the big advantage of sexual reproduction is that we mix up our genetics 🙂
[22:25] Chraeloos: Paul we’re talking about this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/03/russian-mogul-soliciting-billonaires-to-achieve-immortality/ and http://io9.com/5931388/immortality-by-2045-russian-scientists-think-its-possible
[22:25] Chraeloos: Bryce, maybe not. THey’d just upload you into a new body from the main server, like in BSG
[22:25] Tricipian Serendipity: extending the longevity of life will do us little good if we dont improve the quality of life
[22:25] Rhiannon of the Birds: Violet, right; that’s why many SF writers (and some philosophers) think a society of immortals will stagnate
[22:25] MarieEcho: which can adapt to natural selections
[22:25] Bryce Galbraith: .. but barring that you could conceivably just keep living.. howeve, after a while, people’s earlier memories started to recede. So in practice you only remember a ‘sliding window’ of time in your life.
[22:25] Chraeloos: Violet, right, would a hologram be able to procreate?
[22:25] Bryce Galbraith: I think that’s actually my favorite book of his…
[22:26] Rory Torrance: very true paul
[22:26] Chraeloos: Bryce, interesing
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: hi rory!! nice to meet you
[22:26] AnthonyE Staryk: genetic diversity is what is beneficial, not a drawback as is so often misidentified…Immortality would impact the birth rate as well as the mortality rate…
[22:26] Chraeloos: Paul, yes definitely. Would peole want to live forever?
[22:26] MarieEcho: dawkins has some chapters on why after certain points, the genes throw away the living body, and wants to build a new one from scratch
[22:26] MarieEcho: which means the old ppl die and younger ppl grow form babies again
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: the rich would be the first to benefit and are they the best to be ? hehe
[22:26] Violet: I don’t want to live forever…..I just want to live a really, really, really long time 😛
[22:26] AnthonyE Staryk: immortality could become incredibly detrimental to our long term existence as a species
[22:26] Bryce Galbraith: Actually even now I don’t remember everything anyway — that’s why I have a bunch of notebooks and such.. paper and digital … to serve as my extended memory …
[22:26] Tricipian Serendipity: how long is forever?
[22:26] Zon Kwan: but what if we have soul that already lives longer than one life
[22:27] Chraeloos: Paul, I agree completely. The tech would only be available to those who ould afford it…and personally I don’t want them around forever lol
[22:27] Chraeloos: Violet, lol!
[22:27] Tricipian Serendipity: human civilization is only about 7k years old
[22:27] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, most people don’t want to live forever, they’d just rather not die
[22:27] MarieEcho: why do ppl want to live long , whats the purpose of living
[22:27] MusE Starsmith: Chrae, the thing about “self” is it’s not ultimately definable. But for me, the totality of my physical experience is/must be intertwined and interdependent with any “mind” I may have.
[22:27] Chraeloos: Bryce, right me too
[22:27] MusE Starsmith: or maybe I’m just out of said mind… lol
[22:27] Violet: haha, that’s a good way to put it, Rhi
[22:27] AnthonyE Staryk: How do you know that’s not the case now Zon. Simply our awareness of such things is not present?
[22:27] Chraeloos: Paul, forever could be after the earth explodes and we’re all floating aroundin our avatars in space wondering what the heck to do now?
[22:27] Zon Kwan: nods
[22:27] Violet: Life is comfortable–it’s where I keep all my stuff 🙂
[22:28] Tricipian Serendipity: and still lagging too chrae hehe lol
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, ditto Violet 🙂
[22:28] Zon Kwan: reincranation means consciosness shift to antoher body
[22:28] Tricipian Serendipity: what is the tier in this extend life idea hehe
[22:28] Rory Torrance: id be happy to go explore the galaxy personally
[22:28] Chraeloos: Muse, agreed. So you wouldn’t want to if you didn’t know 100% what it would turn out as?
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: Hmmm.. actually, I’m not sure I quite agree that immortality would result in stagnation…
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: It might actually be very liberating.
[22:28] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, where’s the fun in that, Muse?
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: You would have time to explore lots of ideas and such.
[22:28] Chraeloos: VIolet, lolol
[22:28] Chraeloos: Paul, lol
[22:28] Violet: I think, if nothing else, immortality would force us to think in longer time scales
[22:28] Bryce Galbraith: It might be that immortality really frees humans.
[22:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: There was an Asimov story along similar lines to your idea of our avatars wondering through the galaxies.
[22:29] MusE Starsmith: I’m not saying that, Chrae, as I could never really know, and as Bryce says…it may be an adventure
[22:29] MusE Starsmith: Hello FEndy and Bikeoh
[22:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: And a couple became upset when they missed their bodies
[22:29] Violet: It sometimes seems to me that we don’t really live long enough to develop the way we should.
[22:29] Chraeloos: Bryce, agreed, but who gets to live forever? THis planet isn’t sustainable for this many people
[22:29] Bikejoh: rhiannon, maybe the last question?
[22:29] Chraeloos: Muse, true
[22:29] Chraeloos: Hi Sly 🙂
[22:29] AnthonyE Staryk: I would think that population issues will become more relevant, and humanities desire to reach out to the stars would expand since immortality would allow for an individual to explore far reaches of space and individuals will still be alive when they reach a far out destination.
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — are you thinking of the short story ‘Eyes do More than See’?
[22:29] Violet: Then again, mortality kind of keeps me going in a sense….without it, I might put off living indefinitely.
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: I think that was the title…
[22:29] harmoniasophia Scribe: a hologram wont need food
[22:29] Rory Torrance: yes the human species has so far shown little ability to think even in the long term of one lifetime, a major shift of perspective would be needed…
[22:29] Bryce Galbraith: http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/~tolis/toli/other/eyes.html
[22:29] AnthonyE Staryk: Think that was the Foundation septaologu Rhia…
[22:29] DonJuan Writer: there’s a wonderful sci-fi book by John Wyndham called “The Trouble With Lichen” on the life extension subject.. the scientist who held the secret was a woman and she gave it to the young wives of billionaires.. to bring a more feminine touch to the future
[22:30] Chraeloos: Rhia, I think I am familiar with that. HOw are you intimate if you can’t touch?
[22:30] Fendybendy: I think the universe is a circle. Discuss.
[22:30] Bikejoh: universe big
[22:30] Bikejoh: toke
[22:30] Chraeloos: Anthony, I agree
[22:30] Rory Torrance: lol
[22:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, maybe; it was one that was based on a picture of a nude statue sent to him, and other authors, by Playboy. He wrote a story, they rejected it at warp speed, and he sent it to Fantasy and Science Fiction, where a friend was an editor
[22:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: (Or Galaxy)
[22:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: (We’ve managed it, Chrae. ::blushes::)
[22:31] Chraeloos: haha Rhi, mhm
[22:31] Chraeloos: Ok, so what shift would we need to get through living forever?
[22:32] Sonitus Randt: re: intimacy, a movie with a related theme, loss of the physical, is “The Colossus of New York” starring Ross Martin – human brain I think, not just mind, put into robot body – 50s
[22:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: I think most people base their notions of immortality on their physical bodies–and even if their consciousness was transfered to a hologram, they’d feel cheated
[22:32] Chraeloos: What would the implications be on working? On social activities, etc.?
[22:32] Chraeloos: Rhia, probably. I know I would.
[22:32] MusE Starsmith: way back THEN, Sonitus…interesting people have thought about this before SL even
[22:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, I recall seeing that movie on MsT3K I think.
[22:32] Chraeloos: Sonitus, interesting
[22:32] Bryce Galbraith: That’s a good next question there Chrae.. how to adapt to immortality…
[22:32] Bryce Galbraith: For one… you may want to reconsider that life insurance policy…
[22:32] Chraeloos: Bryc,e yeah, if this works, then what?
[22:32] Violet: Since we’re kinda talking about sci-fi….I loved Dennis Danvers’ Bin series, which was sort of about how people end up dealing with immortality through a big SLish virtual world….
[22:32] Rory Torrance: makes me think of “red dwarf” and how frustrated rimmer was when he became a hologram…
[22:32] Chraeloos: Bryce, hahaha
[22:33] AnthonyE Staryk: would it make people be more accountable since they won’t die, eventually their actions will find them or vice versa…
[22:33] Violet: (Or reject it and learn to deal with mortality without it)
[22:33] Tricipian Serendipity: what about the opposite idea ; logans run comes to mind in that
[22:33] Bryce Galbraith: lol! Yeah, indeed Rory… that was a fun series too 🙂
[22:33] Chraeloos: lol guys, Sci fi has dealt with this a bunch
[22:33] MusE Starsmith: “Better than Life” (Red Dwarf episode)
[22:33] Chraeloos: maybe we’d all have to get educated in sci fi
[22:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, I think, from what I’ve been hearing tonight, we all think that people *will* die, just lead a very long life
[22:33] Chraeloos: Anthony, maybe. Do you think so?
[22:33] Bikejoh: rhiannon why are you nakey
[22:34] MusE Starsmith: Oh yes, Logan’s Run! I’d be long dead by now!
[22:34] Chraeloos: Paul, the opposite idea of?
[22:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: We’ve addressed the breakdown of the human mind, problesm with personal identity, the problems to the species with immortality
[22:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: MusE, you’d be regenerated in carnival, don’t you know?
[22:35] AnthonyE Staryk: well…if people truly became immortal, that death was off the table…the concept of karma comes to mind, consequences for ones actions…the world is only so big, there’s only so many places you can hide out or move too
[22:35] Tricipian Serendipity: not all would be able to live foreveer; us plebes would be killed off at 25 say hehe
[22:35] MusE Starsmith: so they tell me…but it would not be MEEEEEE, Rhia lol
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: Can you see some folks being offered an option for radical life extension and saying … ‘no thanks’ ?
[22:35] Chraeloos: Anthony, yeah, if you believe in that. Others might act like teenagers for the rest of their lives
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: Ah, well, there’s that too Tri…
[22:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, I read a SF story where a couple fled the Earth, as the government made immortality compulsory
[22:35] Bryce Galbraith: immortality for some…
[22:35] Tricipian Serendipity: they already do chrae hehe
[22:35] Chraeloos: Bryce, yeah me
[22:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: They were on a primitive planet, where’d they live out a natural lifespan
[22:35] Violet: Initially, out of fear, Bryce, yeah….in the longer run, I don’t know. I think most people prefer life to the alternatives.
[22:35] AnthonyE Staryk: they might Chrae, others would surely tire of them…then what?
[22:36] Violet: I’d imagine some people would choose not to extend their lives. There are always some people who do anything 🙂
[22:36] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose the devil is in the details, when it comes to immortality .. what are the conditions?
[22:36] Chraeloos: Violet, I wouldn’t do it out of fear. I just don’t think we should live that long. Our minds and bodies are only meant for so long. the universe has other plans for other species. nothing should exist forever.
[22:36] Tricipian Serendipity: i would want to know at what age you life is extended in
[22:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: musE, which raises the point–aren’t people really saying they want their Egos to be immortal? Not their bodies?
[22:36] AnthonyE Staryk: what if there wasn’t a choice? ㋡ what if the immortality virus got out and infected everyone?
[22:36] Bryce Galbraith: getting to live forever but only as a head in a fishtank doesn’t sound that awesome..
[22:36] Tricipian Serendipity: to live for ever old would not be fun hehe
[22:36] Chraeloos: Anthony, exactly. What do you do then? Shoot them into space with a cannon?
[22:37] MusE Starsmith: exactly, Bryce! and what is the POINT? Isn’t renewing resources (including human creativity) a good thing?
[22:37] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, exactly Tri…
[22:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, exactly; i think we’ve actually decided tonight that death is not only inevitable, but a good thing.
[22:37] Violet: Leonard Nemoy seems to enjoy it, Bryce :p
[22:37] AnthonyE Staryk: maybe Chrae. How do we currently get people to conform to social norms?
[22:37] Chraeloos: Anthony, then we dont have a choice, haha
[22:37] Sonitus Randt: Depends on the state of their sex lives, rhi
[22:37] Bryce Galbraith: lol! Violet 🙂
[22:37] Tricipian Serendipity: extending the natural life span i think is more possible and more practical
[22:37] Tricipian Serendipity: but only again if we improve the conditins of life on earth
[22:37] Bryce GalbraithBryce Galbraith remembers the scene of Leonard Nimoys head being fed fish food…
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sonitus, which I think is probably more ego than libido, Anthony
[22:38] XTC: death is not a good thing for those of us with a consciousness
[22:38] Violet: I’m not a fan of death…or aging, disease, entropy in general. I’m all for figuring out how to turn it around…
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Don’t ask me why I put Anthony at the end of that
[22:38] MusE Starsmith: Sonitus, aren’t you cheeky tonight! °͜°
[22:38] Chraeloos: Anthony, some places by death, others by jails, and eventual reentry into society. Or we lock them up in an asylum.
[22:38] Tricipian Serendipity: we all have withiin us the ability to live longer than e do
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Violet, oh, that’s easy–just reverse Time’s Arrow
[22:38] Bryce Galbraith: Now, if I could live forever with a nicely attuned and fully capable human body… that’s a different story…
[22:38] harmoniasophia Scribe: I find it as madness for something that is immortal to contrive ann idea immortality as being something he is not – its like sententcing its self to an everlasting prison
[22:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, but again–would it be you after a while?
[22:38] Chraeloos: XTC< why?
[22:39] Tricipian Serendipity: yes if i could be a hot stud for a few hundred years that would b cool bryce hehe
[22:39] AnthonyE Staryk: or we condition them…or drug them…or control them through economic means…
[22:39] Violet: I’ll have to catch it first, Rhi…it always seems to be just ahead of me 😛
[22:39] Bryce Galbraith: Harmonia — did you mean your first ‘immortal’ to be ‘mortal’ ?
[22:39] Chraeloos: Paul, Bryce, lolol
[22:39] Chraeloos: Rhi, we are always changing based on our experiences, though. Whats the difference?
[22:39] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — even now I’m not the same me that I was 5, 10, 20 years ago ..
[22:40] Chraeloos: Anthony, right, so would that work long term? They’re invincible, after all
[22:40] Bryce Galbraith: and I won’t be the same person in another 5, 10, or 20 years…
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, the difference would be the continuity of memory involved in the experience of the “I”
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: If that continuity isn’t there, then in what sense does the “I” continue?
[22:40] Bryce Galbraith: and that’s cool… the possibility of being able to continually reinvent myself is pretty exciting really.
[22:40] Chraeloos: Rhi, why wouldn’t there be continuity?
[22:40] MusE Starsmith: You can have that hot body forever right here in SL!
[22:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, there is still the continuity of the “I”.
[22:40] AnthonyE Staryk: or maybe Society would have to get more creative with its solutions
[22:40] Chraeloos: lol Muse!
[22:40] Tricipian Serendipity: but we dont know how long they live muse hehe
[22:40] harmoniasophia Scribe: without something already existing then the image of itself could no exist
[22:41] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, Chrae, if we take memory coninuity as the basis of personal identity, after 900 years would there be a straight line of memory from her to me?
[22:41] harmoniasophia Scribe: so yes sort of Bryce
[22:41] Tricipian Serendipity: no one in sl is older than 9 lol; that is not even a human life span yet hehe
[22:41] Violet: If only I could mute my butt when it starts to hurt, Muse…
[22:41] Chraeloos: Harm, can you expand on that please?
[22:41] Chraeloos: Rhi, why not? I already don’t ahve a straight line of memory, and I’m pretty young…ehem…lol
[22:41] MusE Starsmith: lol Violet…trying to imagine muted butt…
[22:41] Chraeloos: Paul, lol true
[22:41] Chraeloos: Violet, lol
[22:41] Rory Torrance: criminy ive never been linear
[22:42] Bryce Galbraith: I suppose if you get tired of living you simply self terminate… if you are digital you can delete yourself…
[22:42] Chraeloos: Rory, me either
[22:42] Chraeloos: Bryce, oh good point. But what if you cant?
[22:42] Chraeloos: who would have control over that?
[22:42] Chraeloos: what if hte power went out?
[22:42] Chraeloos: ohoh
[22:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, but that’s exactly my point. And if tht line gets attenuated over the~centuries~is there continuity of self?
[22:42] Bryce Galbraith: Chrae — another option that effectively achieves the same result sorta — an option to wipe out your memory and start over
[22:42] Chraeloos: Rhia, why not? Are you still the same person if you get alzheimers?
[22:42] harmoniasophia Scribe: the image we identify with is a thought – without an I am to think then thinking would be moot Chrae – thoughts have a source
[22:42] Rory Torrance: id sure like to give it a try and find out
[22:43] Chraeloos: Bryce, yeah maybe. Would that be worth it though?
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, if not memory, what is the line of continuity here?
[22:43] Violet: That’s why you tie a string to your quarters and cheat the suicide booth….just in case 🙂
[22:43] MusE Starsmith: I’d need me a darned good backup generator
[22:43] Bryce Galbraith: Rhi — I suspect the ‘self’ would snap at some point 😉
[22:43] AnthonyE Staryk: what of an immortal with MPD? dfoes 900s years suddently become chunks of different “personalities”?
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not your body.
[22:43] Chraeloos: Harm, definitely. LIke in Robert J Sawyers recent series “Wake”
[22:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: If you’ve changed bodies, and you have no memory continuity, then who are you?
[22:43] Rory Torrance: if you dont remember your early childhood, are you the same person you were?
[22:43] Chraeloos: Rhi, exactly. Consciousness? Personality?
[22:43] Bryce Galbraith: It’s no wonder immortality is a rich area for sci-fi 🙂
[22:43] Tricipian Serendipity: yes rory bc something in that still is who we are °͜°
[22:43] Chraeloos: Muse, lolol agreed
[22:44] Rory Torrance: i think so too
[22:44] harmoniasophia Scribe: I havent seen or heard of “Wake”
[22:44] Rory Torrance: even if we dont exactly recall
[22:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, well, we can say it of you, as there is physical continuity. But if now “you’re” a hologram, or in a robotic body, then how do we justify saying that?
[22:44] Bryce Galbraith: I think that’s kind of an interesting concept .. the discontinuity of self…
[22:44] Chraeloos: Rory, exactly.
[22:44] Chraeloos: If I gain a year, I lose one.
[22:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thanks, Bryce
[22:44] MusE Starsmith: there is conscious, recallable memory, and also partially or totally inaccessible memory
[22:44] Bryce Galbraith: Yes, thank you Rhi, I feel like I have a new toy to play with 🙂
[22:44] Violet: Identity hiccups?
[22:44] Tricipian Serendipity: anyone see that movie “in Time” had justin timberlake; time was currency
[22:44] Sonitus Randt: Also, even if you don’t remember childhood, you might retain habitual ways of thinking, behaving
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: that’s a great phrase Violet!
[22:45] Violet: 🙂
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: ‘identity hiccups’
[22:45] AnthonyE Staryk: Total Recall the remake opens on the 10th of August…that alone is a deep exploration of memory and personality…about individual perceptions and “reality”
[22:45] Chraeloos: Harm, its a sci fi series, about a blind girl who gets a mechanical implant that lets her see, and she ends up being able to communicate with an entity that was “born” in the internet, that realizes its conscious
[22:45] Bryce Galbraith: I am so keeping a transcript of this discussion…
[22:45] Chraeloos: Violet, lol!
[22:45] Rhiannon of the Birds: Identity hiccoughs? I like that.
[22:45] Tricipian Serendipity: remake is nothing like the original too ant.
[22:45] Violet: Lain!
[22:45] AnthonyE Staryk: I know 😦
[22:46] Tricipian Serendipity: too many remakes in the movies thsi year 😦
[22:46] Chraeloos: Bryce, me too
[22:46] Bryce Galbraith: Lain — now there’s an interesting anime!
[22:46] AnthonyE Staryk: Hollyweird is tapped out for storylines…
[22:46] Chraeloos: Does anyone mind if I stick this on my blog? I can edit out names
[22:46] Tricipian Serendipity: hollyweird hehe °͜°
[22:46] Violet: Sure, Chrae
[22:46] MusE Starsmith: Oh, interesting, Chrae. They were dealing with machine entities in the last few episodes of “Eureka”
[22:46] Chraeloos: lol Paul, Anthony
[22:46] Rory Torrance: no prob
[22:46] AnthonyE Staryk: sure Chrae
[22:46] Bryce Galbraith: I would sort of like it if somebody remade Lain …. but so that it cohered a bit more and made sense. I wonder if that would ‘break’ it though?
[22:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: you can keep my name, Chrae. And sure.
[22:46] MusE Starsmith: ok Chrae, but give us the link, please
[22:46] Chraeloos: Muse, oh cool, I don’t have TV anymore, so I dunno
[22:47] Sonitus Randt: fine with me chrae
[22:47] Chraeloos: Muse, I sure will, can send it through the group
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: i will give my permision with one condition attached chrae °͜°
[22:47] Chraeloos: Paul, yes?
[22:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Just remember, she’s a lady, Paul
[22:47] harmoniasophia Scribe: the world is a place whose purpose is to be a home where those who claim they do not know themselves can come to question what it is they are. And they will come again until they learn it is impossible to doubt yourself, and not to be aware of what you are.
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: you must also put this on our forum °͜°
[22:47] Chraeloos: lolol Rhi
[22:47] Chraeloos: Paul, oh yeah no problem!
[22:47] Violet: I think that’d kinda break it for me, Bryce….but I think the plot is actually really fascinating, once you figure it out enough, so maybe just something separate that followed similar ideas?
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: (looks to muse to post the link for that)
[22:47] Bryce Galbraith: For those of you not familiar, ‘Lain’ is a ref to ‘Serial Experiments Lain’, an anime series from I guess the late 1990s…
[22:47] MusE Starsmith: oh ok…coming up
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: http://www.tricipia.org/community
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: 😛
[22:47] Chraeloos: Harm, interesting. So we are projections of something else?
[22:47] Tricipian Serendipity: got it
[22:48] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah… I think I agree Violet…
[22:48] Violet: Although the writer/director was working on a sorta-remake/reboot thing set in the 30s, that got cancelled…
[22:48] Chraeloos: Bryce, thanks didn;t know that
[22:48] Violet: If that counts 🙂
[22:48] Chraeloos: OK, so it seems like none of us really want to be immortal…am I wrong?
[22:48] harmoniasophia Scribe: the projection is nothing – we are something else who believe the projection is our self – misdentified – thus dissociated and dislaced
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: Um, I think I’d like to be immortal…
[22:49] harmoniasophia Scribe: displaced
[22:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, most of us are reconciled to not being immortal, let’s put it that way
[22:49] AnthonyE Staryk: There was a book I read years back about AI…the story was “When H.A.R.L.I.E was One” and it’s about an AI that builds G.O.D. (Graphical Omniscient Device) that contains all knowledge of the planet that’s accessible so that it can explore existence and sentience, as the scientist that creates HARLIE is unable to answer many of his deeper questions…
[22:49] Sonitus Randt: don’t know chare, first i need to get a few hundred years under my belt
[22:49] Chraeloos: Harm, ok, I think I can follow that
[22:49] Violet: I’d like to be…I’m just not sure if it’s totally feasible
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: … if really faced with not existing anymore…
[22:49] MusE Starsmith: (Tricipia Forum: http://www.tricipia.org/community/index.php)
[22:49] Chraeloos: Rhi, yeah
[22:49] Sonitus Randt: might be fun, might suck
[22:49] Chraeloos: Anthony, interesting
[22:49] Bryce Galbraith: Ah, yeah, I think Rhi put it better… I agree, we’re pretty much doomed to die eventually.
[22:49] Violet: But I like existing. It’s what I’m best at doing!
[22:49] Chraeloos: Sonitus, lol sounds fair, but what if you cant back out afterwards?
[22:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: AnthonyE, like V’jer coming home to get from it’s Creator the answer to why it was created.
[22:49] Tricipian Serendipity: joining and visiting the forum is invited to all too btw °͜°
[22:50] Tricipian Serendipity: its sparse but i am sure you can change that °͜°
[22:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: Have you sent that in a NC to us, Paul. I will not remember the website after I leave here.
[22:50] Chraeloos: Paul, we can try!
[22:50] Tricipian Serendipity: i think its on the weekly nc you all get 😛
[22:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’ll be up all night instead thinking, “I’m gonna die; I’m gonna die; I’m gonna die.”
[22:50] Chraeloos: indeed it is
[22:50] Chraeloos: Rhi, aw haha
[22:51] MusE Starsmith: < balks at the thought of having a few hundred years under anyone’s belt, including own…
[22:51] Tricipian Serendipity: yes muse! lol
[22:51] Chraeloos: Muse, well its apparently possible with chinese mediicne….XD and qi gong
[22:51] AnthonyE Staryk: it ends with the gov’t shutting the system down, but by then it’s too late, HARLIE has already spread across the Internet and shows up once to the scientist that created him to let him know he’s still around, but hiding…and leaves it wide open from there….
[22:51] Tricipian Serendipity: the 34 i have had so far has been plenty hehe
[22:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’ve understood a lot of things since being in SL–like reincarnation, as many people I meet in SL think that I’ve been here before in another shape or form
[22:51] Sage Hartmann: I think what would be cooler than immortality would be thte ability to merge and split our identities with others. Then there would still be cross-hybridization in ideas and identities, but also continuity in all our experiences.
[22:51] Chraeloos: Rhi, you have, lolol
[22:51] MusE Starsmith: snicker
[22:52] Chraeloos: Sage, that is really interesting
[22:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, et tu?
[22:52] Violet: I like that, Sage…
[22:52] Chraeloos: Sage, I still don’t think I’d want to. I’m weird, but don’t want to show people how *really* weird I am, lolol
[22:52] MusE Starsmith: trippy, Sage
[22:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Sage, now, thjat’s a very interesting tought
[22:52] Violet: …and there was another interesting anime sort of with that concept…Kaiba
[22:52] Chraeloos: Rhi, haha I had to think about that one. 😛 I may be Canadian but I’m not French!
[22:52] AnthonyE Staryk: what if you could transfer your “consciousness” into another body? like in Avatar or some of the other stories out there. that’s another form of immortality, is it not?
[22:52] Chraeloos: Anthony, I think thats this scientists idea
[22:52] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, that would work Anthony…
[22:52] Tricipian Serendipity: the mercy chrae hehe
[22:53] Chraeloos: Paul, haha
[22:53] MusE Starsmith: That is a big “if” though, for me, Anthony…
[22:53] AnthonyE Staryk: damn I know the kinda upgrades I would be buckin for LOL
[22:53] Violet: Mm, Muse
[22:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well,in avatar, you were still connected to your original body–until the planet-spirit sent you to another body, anyway
[22:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: Which was supposed to be unusual
[22:53] Tricipian Serendipity: wow….
[22:53] harmoniasophia Scribe: one would be sorely disappointed to merge – if they believe they will discover more variety
[22:53] Chraeloos: So, do you think its worth it to support this guy in his research? Or is it a waste of money?
[22:53] Bryce Galbraith: I kinda like the solution they had in Doctor Who — that is, you ‘regenerate’.. but your personality and body alter quite a bit, but you do have memories of earlier selves..
[22:53] Rory Torrance: i have done a lot of experimenting with cellular automata and i think i agree with wolfram, it strongly suggests a sort of conservation of information in any physical universe, and besides, in an infinite universe all patterns would repeat endlessly anyway, so it may well be that we all have avatars and incarnations scattered throughout space and time… perhaps we are psychically connected to them, experience them in our dreams..
[22:53] Sage Hartmann: Re: merging/splitting, for instance, there might be a couple dozen keypointes in the brain where if we wired up to someone else who was somewhat similar, we could cooperatively navigate memory/identity integration. And then perhaps do a clone of our consciousness if we decided we wanted to specialize.
[22:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, actually, even in an infinite universe or an eternal recurrence, it doesn’t follow that all patterns repeat.
[22:54] Violet: That seems ideal, Bryce….you keep the continuity of self while also keeping the diversity and creativity of new life. Cake and eating it.
[22:54] Rory Torrance: well repeat with variations perhaps like a fractal
[22:54] Chraeloos: Rory, I love the topic of cellular automata. I think its a good possibility
[22:54] Rory Torrance: not repeat exactly
[22:54] Tricipian Serendipity: what if there are only ever a finite number of patersn that can rhi?
[22:54] AnthonyE Staryk: wouldn’t an infinite universe have infinite patterns?
[22:54] harmoniasophia Scribe: no
[22:55] harmoniasophia Scribe: a cicular gives the impression of infinity – but its an illusive deception
[22:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: Paul, I forget who, but a mathematicians showed that there is no necessity to the repeat. It was a nice myth of Nietzche’s, but has no basis in reality
[22:55] AnthonyE Staryk: ummm…then by definition, it’s not infinite….
[22:55] Bryce Galbraith: Yep, indeed Violet … and you can change out actors 😉
[22:55] Tricipian Serendipity: i disagree rhi
[22:55] Violet: lol
[22:55] harmoniasophia Scribe: all patterns are ultimately circles
[22:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Paul, you disagree with me? What a surprise
[22:56] Chraeloos: harm, aren’t we all circles?
[22:56] Rory Torrance: i suspect the universe contains all possible variations but who knows
[22:56] Chraeloos: lol Rhi
[22:56] MusE Starsmith: spiral within circle gets my vote lol
[22:56] Chraeloos: ouzozo or whatever its called lol
[22:56] harmoniasophia Scribe: the projection is circular Xhrae – our real self is not
[22:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Rory, it’s just not a necessity that it does.
[22:56] Tricipian Serendipity: yes no maybe is the going to have to be the cooomon dynamic
[22:56] MusE Starsmith: Rhia lol, it just NEVER happens!
[22:56] harmoniasophia Scribe: Chrae
[22:56] Chraeloos: Harm, why not?
[22:56] Violet: I suspect the universe has less idea of what it’s doing than I do, really
[22:56] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, I agree Violet…
[22:56] Tricipian Serendipity: no reality i think can exist
[22:56] Violet: And I’m just winging it 🙂
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: probably the shape of the universe is a corkscrew 😉
[22:57] Rory Torrance: i do think its a spiral
[22:57] MusE Starsmith: in that case, Bryce, who’s bringing the wine?
[22:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce, you saying the universe is just some being’s way of removing the cork from His champagne?
[22:57] AnthonyE Staryk: how ironic, we finite beings with finite minds, wax about infinity….a paradox….
[22:57] Tricipian Serendipity: without these 3 core “principles”
[22:57] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds locks eyes with MusE
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: I’d be happy to MusE 🙂
[22:57] Chraeloos: Mmm, Wine hahaha
[22:57] harmoniasophia Scribe: creation expands – it procreates – patterns recreate – they are stuck in a circle
[22:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, you sure you aren’t French?
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: Yes Rhi — at least I sincerely hope so!
[22:57] Bryce Galbraith: Actually, as a ‘Purpose’ of the universe goes, that one actually makes me happiest 🙂
[22:58] Chraeloos: Rhi, nope. A bit German, Flemish even, British, but thats about it as far as I know.
[22:58] Chraeloos: hahaha
[22:58] Bryce Galbraith: The Purpose of the Universe is open a grand bottle of Champagne!
[22:58] Violet: 🙂 that’s pretty Vonnegutian, I think, Bryce
[22:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, back to your question, Chrae; I think, like all research, it should be funded by those who believe in it
[22:58] Violet: I like it
[22:58] MusE Starsmith: ok! we have a bar that has wine above the gallery currently showing the work of Rory (cue shameless promotion)
[22:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: And not by those who don’t
[22:58] Tricipian Serendipity: i dont see it as a paradox ant.
[22:58] Bryce Galbraith: Thank you Violet… I wasn’t even trying that time either 😉
[22:58] Violet: 🙂
[22:58] Rory Torrance: lol
[22:58] Rory Torrance: thanks muse
[22:58] Chraeloos: Muse, haha great!
[22:58] MusE Starsmith: 😉
[22:58] Chraeloos: I know where I’ll be, hahaha
[22:59] MusE Starsmith: Vonnegutian, my new favorite term!
[22:59] Chraeloos: Ok guys, thats the hour! Thanks so much for coming! Great ideas! If you would like to see more events like this please leave a donation in the bowl between Violet and Sonitus, in the back. Have a great night everyone!
[22:59] Chraeloos: See you all next week, same time, same place 🙂
[22:59] AnthonyE Staryk: be well everyone
[22:59] Violet: Thanks, Chrae, g’night 🙂
[22:59] Chraeloos: lol Muse
[22:59] Rory Torrance: a pleasure
[22:59] MusE Starsmith: Chrae! wow, thanks! ’twas a fast hour!
[23:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: nite, Violet
[23:00] Tricipian Serendipity: ty for hosting chrae ; good topic good turn out °͜°
[23:00] Chraeloos: Sure was!
[23:00] harmoniasophia Scribe: how can one speak of what one does not know – if one does not know it?
[23:00] Sonitus Randt: thanks for hosting chare, enjoyed this a lot
[23:00] Chraeloos: Great Turnout!
[23:00] TC Discussion Deck: Another great tip donated! Thank you for your support!!
[23:00] TC Discussion Deck: The tip jar is located in the back 🙂 donations appreciated 🙂 🙂
[23:00] Rory Torrance: good ol vonnegut
[23:00] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Sonitus, vVi, everyone
[23:00] Chraeloos: Harm, you speak of it now
[23:00] AnthonyE Staryk: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/sight-chilling-futuristic-film-made-graduation-project-goes-012502110.html?_esi=0&ugccmtnav=v1/comments/context/e34c1278-efff-34d2-ada9-ff8420eb4879/comments?count=20&sortBy=mostReplied
[23:00] Bryce Galbraith: thank you for hosting Chrae!
[23:00] Chraeloos: Thank you Bryce!

The Will of a Particle


The Will of a Particle. Originally from taoareyou.com:

One of the more controversial aspects of quantum mechanics is the probability factor.  Basically, the properties of particles, such as position and momentum, are not known with certainly but rather estimated through complex mathematical formulas.  Einstein took issue with this, resulting in the famous quote, “I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice.”

Of course Einstein was being metaphorical, since I don’t think he was professing his faith in a specific creator, but he was a man that did hold  beliefs.  He believed that all things have order and predictability.  To him, relying on probability just meant that somewhere, some understanding was missing.  Unfortunately, he died before he could find out what that was.  Even today, that search has never been completed.

When I think about this subject, I cannot approach it with the highly trained mathematical mind, but instead, I begin my visualization from a super-massive perspective rather than a sub-atomic one.  We look out at the universe.  We see our solar system, planets orbiting the sun, distant stars within the galaxy, other galaxies, galaxy clusters and so on.  Imagine if our consciousness was one that was looking down at our universe in the same manner we examine molecules.  This consciousness would likely be able to make predictions about the galaxies’ movements, and perhaps identify even smaller atoms, what we call solar systems.  Stars would be like tiny nuclei, planets would be like electrons zipping around them.  Then this consciousness would look deeper and note even smaller particles that make up the planets.

Us.  We are after all, technically a part of the planet.  Every piece of us was at sometime before us being used in a different capacity.  So how would the huge consciousness predictour movements?  What mathematical formula or principle governs our choices and our actions?    To it, would birth and death seem like parts of the Earth’s surface constantly bubbling in some chaotic manner?  Could it understand the meaning of societies or would it see it as some quantum flux?  What about our thoughts and emotions?  Would it even be able to see that we have our own sub-atomic world of wonder?

Depending on perspective, we are particles.  We like to think that we have no predictable formulas that apply to us.  At best our actions can be broken down into probabilities.  A profiler can look at different known factors and make predictions but they still cannot with certainty know in advance what we think or do.  That is our individual will.

But does will apply to our particles observed in quantum mechanics?  We have consciousness, an electron doesn’t.  Right?  This brings to mind Aristotle’s Metaphysics where he surmised, “the whole is more than the sum of its parts”.  Electrons are particles that are part of who we are.  Still, like the electron, we are also tiny particles in the greater body of the Universe.  Yet we are conscious and make decisions that are at best a probability.

So is there a missing mathematical understanding that will link the world of quantum physics to the physics Einstein knew?  Or is quantum probability the foundation of consciousness?

Past in monsoon changes linked to major shifts in Indian civilizations


Past in monsoon changes linked to major shifts in Indian civilizations.

I had to comment on this more than just a tweet. Last year, I started studying the evolution of humanity. I came across great evidence suggesting that people originated in India, and then headed to Africa (and everywhere else).

This could turn out to be a very long post, so bear with me. (First off, why bear? Are bears patient? Are they able to put up with things for a long time? Do they play with their food? Hm.)

Ok, for all of you who don’t want to read everything: This, to me, shows that (much later than the emergence of the modern man), India was perfect breeding grounds for evolution, industrially, evolutionary, and genetically.

Now, the heavy stuff.

The Sumerians are considered the earliest civilization. They had the first written language, first schools, etc. But they have a problem. It’s called the Sumerian problem. And that is no one knows where they came from.
Because of Kurt Lambeck we know that the Persian Gulf was dry land between 18,000 and 14,000 BC, or right after the ice age, and the melting is what filled it up. This happened as the tides happen today – often. The Persian Gulf is rumored to have drained and refilled constantly between 14,000 and 7,000 BC. That whole area was probably where they came from, or, as Hancock and Lambeck (two researchers) suggest, “east of Iran”. Know what’s east of Iran? India.
So here I pose the question. Did the Sumerians emerge from India? The Indus Valley Civilization is also unknown for it’s origins. Could they all be the same? I’ve posted a few questions in forums about this, based on DNA of the two, but of course we don’t have enough information about the actual people to say at this point. I hope in the future we will gain more knowledge.
Persian Gulf Floods
The above is scanned from “Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization” by Graham Hancock. It details the Persian Gulf from 21,300 years ago until 4800 years ago. Of course this is relative as it fluctuated. However this gives a good idea where the travelers could have gone and when. I don’t see why they would have travelled from China or Pakistan along the water’s border. The only place they would have kept to the shore lines would have been India. Pakistanis likely would have headed more North than West and the Chinese wouldn’t have gone that south in the first place.
The other idea is that they could have come from within the Persian Gulf. As far as we know it was a ‘garden of eden’ before it was flooded, the perfect temperature and climate and conditions to house a civilization. That we won’t know though until we search the bottom of the sea. And even then perhaps they still emerged from India, settled in the Gulf, and then travelled North as the water forced them too. We know the earliest Sumerian city was Eridu, which is the most north-western city. So they likely travelled as far north as they were comfortable, and then settled. The waters stopped rising so they were able to create cities close to the water as time passed.
I’d love more information regarding DNA and geological evidence. I’m sure if they traveled somewhere along the way they would have dropped something. We know Egypt and India share seals and other art forms but we don’t know much about the land between the two. What I’m wondering, is based on the linked post from above, does the monsoon differences prove any of this? Does it prove the natural causes for migration?
And, I’ll mention Kumari Kandam, the proposed sunken continent that attached India, Australia, and Madagascar. It’s possible that the monsoons would have assisted in it’s sinking.
What do you think?

Questions Encountered at the Museum


I went to the museum today, and encountered a few questions I thought I’d share.

How does camouflage evolve?

“The key is that evolution takes small steps over time. The ancestral Eastern tiger swallowtail caterpillar probably looked nothing like a bird turd, and its predators probably completely ignored bird turd as a source of food. In this population any mutation that occurred which made one caterpillar look 2% more turd-like than the others would give that caterpillar a greater chance of survival, as predators would be a little more likely to discount it as a food source. That caterpillar would grow up, reproduce, its offspring would look 2% like a turd and the cycle repeats. Eventually the 2% turd mutation would spread throughout the population. As it becomes more common there would be selective pressure on the predator to identify things that look slightly poo-like as potential food sources. This means that if a second mutation occurred which made the caterpillar look 5% like a turd it would then spread in the same way. Selection would then favour birds able to identify these caterpillars. This could then repeat until we end up with caterpillars that look almost 100% like a bird poo and predators that can tell the difference between a 99% bird poo-like caterpillar and a real bird poo.” –Charles Darwin & Evolution

That’s all fine and dandy, but still, how does the creature know what it should look like?

For mimicry, or on a more general scale, Crypsis to happen, the creature that changed its appearance would need information. Information is something that (as far as we know) insects, animals, etc. don’t have the ability to get. Iyner, on “The Naked Scientists”, states that probability could be at work: “What is the essential difference between that scenario and the arrival of a similar characteristic through two different paths?”

Gavin, on biology-online, says: “Maybe the missing element here is that bugs exist in populations. Variable populations. Reproductive success is at the heart of evolution, and it is reproductive success relative to the other members of the population that is important. If a bug is slightly greener than all the other bugs, it will have a slightly better chance of surviving and reproducing when spending its time, moving or not, amongst green leaves, thus passing along its slightly more greenishness. Maybe that first slightly greener bug got eaten anyway before reproducing. Fast forward a thousand years. A second slightly greenish bug appears but doesn’t get eaten. Slight greenishness is now established in the population. Further mutations may then, over time, improve the greenishness. Later, or concurrently, other variants arise in the population that modify behaviour or body length or morphology that allow those bugs to survive better than others in the population. These new traits then get established in the population.”

But again, this doesn’t answer the question of how it knows what to look like. Maybe I’m over thinking this, but mutations don’t happen all that often. So, how does something adapt to its environment so flawlessly, but so slowly? If it’s left to randomness, to some mutation happening, and benefiting the creature by it not getting eaten, then it would still take a vast amount of time for the population to be completely overrun by the same characteristic (if its even possible for all of the population to change). It would have to be a slow process, and I don’t see how so many different creatures could all survive, and expand their population, based on this theory. Basically, the best explanation we have is of this flawed randomness. I’m skeptical.

How do archaeologists decide where to dig?

Thinkquest says, “Archaeologists look for artifacts at places where prehistoric people probably lived. Early people needed shelter, water, and food, just as we do. So, archaeologists look in caves, near water, in forests, etc. to find things prehistoric people made or had while they were living.
As time passed on, people started living in villages, towns, cities, etc. That is why archaeologists also look at sites of ancient cities. Tombs and sunken ships are also places of many artifacts. It is hard to believe, but areas of destruction from wars can also be sites of many ruins and artifacts.

First, archaeologists do a survey, because it is very expensive to do excavations, and they want to make sure there will be artifacts at the site. The survey includes looking for mounds, foundations, and other visible structures and collecting potsherds. They draw maps and charts and take photographs of the area. They do surveys before people destroy the site by building buildings, houses, and roads, because after the site is destroyed, no one will ever learn about the site.

The second thing archaeologists do is find the artifacts or other signs of behaviour, such as holes for storage, burial, or shelter. This can be done many ways. The most common way is doing an excavation. Another way is making test pits. All of the dirt removed is carefully screened. The dirt falls through the screen, but the artifacts stay.” Also, random people can come across artifacts and will alert archaeologists to the discovery.

When did people decide to have pets, and what made them decide to breed “friendlier” animals?

We honestly don’t know. We do know that people have kept animals around for various purpose, ie. t-bonham@scc.net says: “Cats were used for rodent control, dogs for various uses (herding, hunting, guarding, etc.). I suppose some rich people (Pharaohs, Roman Emperors) kept individual cats or dogs strictly as a pet, but the majority of the species was still a working animal.” Pets probably came about either by the domestication of wild animals (over time, as they spent more time around humans) which would lead to more affection being placed in them and less potential productivity, or by an animal giving birth and the whole “Mommy can I please keep him??” scenario.