Tuesday Discussion Review Feb 21 2012


The discussion today went great. One piece of short prose was read, and then we got on with the discussion. About eight people came and they all stayed throughout the event. Transcript can be found below.

[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Topic: Avicenna on life-forms and the universe
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Quotes taken from “Philosophy” by Stephen Law.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Avicenna (Ibn Sina) is a scientist and astronomer from Persia in 980-1037. He’s best known for his “Cannon of Medicine”.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: He supported the cosmological argument for God’s existence known as the “Kalam argument”.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: This argument “begins from the observation, gained from al-Farabi, that all things in the universe are possible beings,
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: meaning that they might not have existed and have no inherent reason for existing.”
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: “The “essence” of such beings is said to be distinct from their “existence,” so the fact that they exist is not determined by what they are.”
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: “Therefore they must depend on something else for their existence, and must be caused to exist by something else.”
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: “However, this cannot be true of everything that exists, otherwise there would be an infinite regress and no ultimate ground for the existence of anything.”
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: “It follows that there must be a being whose existence is necessary, which is its own cause and sustains everything else in existence.”
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Avicenna thought that being was Allah.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Avicenna follows the same idea as the Neo-platonists, in that all being emanates from God as its sustaining cause.”
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: “This implies that events and actions are predetermined, thus problematizing ideas of moral responsibility and divine justice.”
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: This isn’t intended to be a conversation about God, Gods, or any being as such. If possible, I’d like to replace the idea of God as whatever you want it to be.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: A force, an energy, or even God if you’d prefer. View it how you like.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: However, I’d like to focus on the rest of the premises Avicenna comes to a conclusion about.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: What do you think? I open the floor.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: [ you have reached the end of the current notecard – resetting to first line… ]
[10:18] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I’m impressed by your summary, Chare. There is one thing I’dd like to add
[10:18] Chraeloos: Sure Rhia
[10:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: This argument is usallally associated with Leibnitz, centuries later, and he posited an underlying assumption that makes the argument work. Otherwise, it’s the fallacy of composition.
[10:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: And that is the Principle of Sufficient Reason–everything must have a cause.
[10:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Everyone see how, without that, it’s a fallacy of composition?
[10:20] Chraeloos: Vaguely Rhia, I understand what you’re saying yes.
[10:20] Chraeloos: Indeed, but must it? Do no random acts occur?
[10:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, the whole universe might be the random act
[10:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oops! There’s a universe on the floor. Now, who’s fault is that?
[10:21] Chraeloos: hahaha
[10:21] Sedona: smiles…
[10:21] Chraeloos Resident: SpeakEasy HUD detaching…
[10:21] darcon Xue: I think there is not random act πŸ™‚
[10:22] druth Vlodovic: oh, Leibnitz changes it from material-based to a time-based argument
[10:22] Chraeloos: Right Rhia, but what Avicenna is arguing is that some being had to come before the universe so that it could be created?
[10:22] Calliope Novaland: the randomness seems to be within a greater structure that is organized
[10:22] Chraeloos: Darcon, so you agree with Avicenna? How come?
[10:22] solik Bayard: we must find the place of the” divine” on this bitter earth, and what’s divine means for you all?
[10:22] solik Bayard: we must find the place of the “divine” on this bitter earth, and what’s divine means clustering for you all?
[10:22] darcon Xue: all things are relacted
[10:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, yes, but the thing about Leibnitz is that he is talking about the series of depenent beings. Even if they go on forever, there has to be a cause outside the series, for set-theoretical reasons
[10:23] Chraeloos: Organized Randomness Calliope?
[10:23] druth Vlodovic: a primary cause argumant I can see, but I don’t see how it is related to the idea of a primary essence of things
[10:23] Calliope Novaland: or perhaps random within some structure
[10:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Organized randomness. Like a hockey game?
[10:24] Arabella Eyre: Excuse me, is this an essentially different argument than Aristotle’s Prime Mover?
[10:24] Chraeloos: Solik, I’m not sure what divine means to me. Ultimate truth maybe? I don’t think it comes in a physical form.
[10:24] Calliope Novaland: there was a theory called Chaortic that made sense to me. from the 70’s I believe
[10:24] Chraeloos: What was it Calliope?
[10:24] darcon Xue: the snake biting its own tail πŸ™‚
[10:25] Rhiannon of the Birds: Arabella, well, that depens on what you mean by essentilly? AVicennia is arguing that everything ha to have a cause. Aristotle argued that a causal chain, like every other series, has to have a beginning
[10:25] solik Bayard: so special, i agree yes!*)
[10:25] Calliope Novaland: chaotic order I think he was saying
[10:25] Chraeloos: ouroboros, darcon?
[10:26] Rhiannon of the Birds: Eek. My connections are being intermittent
[10:26] darcon Xue: ouroboros, I don’t know?
[10:26] druth Vlodovic: actually the idea of a first cause is dependant upon the sequential nature of time, hasn’t that been disproven?
[10:26] Chraeloos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros
[10:26] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, no, eactually, if Stephen Hawkins is right, there is a beginning to time.
[10:26] Chraeloos: By who druth?
[10:27] Chraeloos: That’s an interesting idea Calliope. Who brought that about? Do you know?
[10:27] Rhiannon of the Birds: Space-Time had a beginning in the Big Bang, and it is meaningless to ask what came “before” Time (the sequene of baefore and after) So the first caue argument has been revivied in astrophysics
[10:27] druth Vlodovic: well, I keep hearing about time being malleable, running at different speeds in different circumstances etc, if it isn’t rigid then it doesn’t need to be sequential in all cases
[10:28] Calliope Novaland: the name escapes me but you can find it on wiki I think. it is the man who invented the visa card
[10:28] darcon Xue: yes, ouroboros, Char. Thank you πŸ™‚
[10:28] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, oic. Well, yes, that is so. I hadn’t made the connection. Thank you
[10:28] Chraeloos: that’s interesting druth. I knew someone once who came up with the idea of “throwing time”. Well, I don’t know if they’re the first to think of it but I found the thought fascinating.
[10:29] Chraeloos: Oh neat Calliope.
[10:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: But neither Leibnitz nor Avicennia’s depens on the sequential nature of time, only the universality of causation
[10:29] Chraeloos: Right Rhia
[10:29] druth Vlodovic: causation is time-dependant
[10:29] solik Bayard: must leave bye all!)*
[10:29] Chraeloos: thanks for coming Solik, TC
[10:29] Arabella Eyre: Bye Solik
[10:29] Calliope Novaland: bye solik
[10:29] druth Vlodovic: isn’t it?
[10:29] Chraeloos: What druth?
[10:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: And even given the malleable nature of time, if time is part of the Space Time continuum, then it all “began” with the big bang, so there is a primary sense of sequence that the others may be erivitive from
[10:30] druth Vlodovic: but if time is malleable then it doesn’t need a start, or an end
[10:30] druth Vlodovic: the envelope of exsitance would be uncaused
[10:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, depends. For Leibnitz, it is a fundamental necessity, and that can be logical, or causal. We ccan envisage a cause that underlies the whole sequence
[10:31] druth Vlodovic: only by inventing god
[10:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, not a start of an end, but something to prope it up, as it were
[10:31] Chraeloos: interesting Rhia, I can’t seem to “visualize” before the big bang. No time, no matter, essentially nothing.
[10:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: Aquinas took on all these “modern” notions in the Summa
[10:31] druth Vlodovic: “turles all the way down” πŸ™‚
[10:31] Chraeloos: lol druth, that comes up a lot hey
[10:32] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds giggles at druth
[10:32] Arabella Eyre: Yes, I’ve been visualizing those turtles since we started
[10:32] druth Vlodovic: it’s on old question, if god made us who made god?
[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: Good old bertand Russell
[10:32] Chraeloos: druth, God doesn’t have to be a single being, or even multiple, or even a being at all.
[10:32] darcon Xue: we are god πŸ™‚
[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, well, god sent his father bak to impregnate his mother andd save her from a killing robot. No, wait a minute, that was John Conner
[10:32] druth Vlodovic: maybe we made the universe as a place we can be πŸ™‚
[10:33] Chraeloos: perhaps “God” is the force that “created” the big bang, if you can visualize creating something from absolute nothing.
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: God sent a killing robot bak, in order to give the technology to a corporation, so they ccoul create him
[10:33] Arabella Eyre: Lol, Rhia
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: No, wait, that was Skynet
[10:33] Chraeloos: Rhia, lol
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: But my point is, that for God, who can time travel, he ould go back and be his own grandpa
[10:33] darcon Xue: πŸ˜€
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: Read “All You Zombies” for how self-asuation could work
[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: SL is swallowing my ‘c’s
[10:34] Chraeloos: Good point, I think most people assume that God is a constant, unable to manipulate time. As in the “seven days” thing, it’s all based on time.
[10:34] Chraeloos: that’s odd haha, C-wars?
[10:34] Calliope Novaland: does it come down to the question, does God exist outside of us and our realm or is it everywhere?
[10:35] druth Vlodovic: well, I discard the idea of god because of the tutles problem
[10:35] darcon Xue: It is all there is πŸ™‚
[10:35] druth Vlodovic: it just creeates another layer with the same problem
[10:35] Chraeloos: Always, druth
[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, and not just time, but a different concept of time. The sun wasn’t created until the 3rd day. But in ordinary language, a day is a period of the sun going around the earsth
[10:35] Calliope Novaland: substitute any name for “God”, energy, light
[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, well, since God is infinite, he encompasses the turtles
[10:35] Chraeloos: Right Rhia, so technically that isn’t possible, based on what we know now.
[10:36] Chraeloos: Right Calliope
[10:36] darcon Xue: oh do not take bible so literaly πŸ™‚
[10:36] Calliope Novaland: that is it though druth, does that layer exist or not? regardless of names
[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, tnot that it isn’t possible, it’s just that a ‘day’ doesn’t mean 24 hours
[10:36] druth Vlodovic: my thought is “no”
[10:36] Arabella Eyre: There is an idea in Jewish mysticism called Tzimtzum in which God contracted himself to allow for an independent world of causation.
[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: It could be a day in the life of Brhama, i.e., an eon
[10:36] Arabella Eyre: For Himself there is no space or time
[10:36] Chraeloos: Point taken, Rhia
[10:37] Chraeloos: Ah, hadn’t heard of that Arabella, interesting.
[10:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Computer gamses allow us to understand God. I was talking to a student about Go being outside of gtime, being able to move bak an forth tgrhough it; he said it makes sense, he does that in his computer game
[10:37] Chraeloos: I wonder how one would goa bout contracting themselves in that sense haha
[10:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, and it’s a good thing God is honest, or he might have cheated Himself
[10:38] Arabella Eyre: I should have said “apparant” causation.
[10:38] druth Vlodovic: there does seem to be evidence of shoddy workmanship
[10:38] Chraeloos: Interesting point Rhia, I hadn’t thought of that before. It’s a neat visualization.
[10:38] Chraeloos: haha druth, there always has been, and likely always will be
[10:38] Arabella Eyre: It allows us to see ourselves as having the ability to make decisions, and act freely rather than be subsumed into the whole
[10:38] darcon Xue: maybe another god greadt Her? πŸ™‚
[10:39] darcon Xue: created*
[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: darccon, that’s the turtles problem druth alluded to
[10:39] darcon Xue: well, we was not created here πŸ™‚
[10:40] darcon Xue: weare part of all there is
[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, SL is not the only reality. Sometimes, I think that there is a greater one…
[10:40] Chraeloos: Now, that’s a loop darcon. Alternate universes?
[10:40] Chraeloos: Ah rhia, you got there faster
[10:40] Chraeloos: lol
[10:40] Arabella Eyre: That’s an illusion, Rhia
[10:40] darcon Xue: take a cell of your body
[10:41] Arabella Eyre: Allowing us to think there is something greater than ourselves
[10:41] darcon Xue: you have all information there do build your body
[10:41] druth Vlodovic: there are legends of the “lindens” who move about us mysteriously, on errands of their own”
[10:41] Rhiannon of the Birds: Arabella, I think you’re right. For if there were a so called RL, then wouldn’t there be a more real life beyond it? And so forth. Turtles again
[10:41] Chraeloos: Ah druth, there’s a key. Horton Hears a Who, anyone?
[10:41] Arabella Eyre: My tail is stuck in my mouth
[10:41] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[10:41] Rhiannon of the Birds: Seriously, though, virtual worlds gave me a handle on a lot of what Plato had in mind by levels of reality.
[10:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: Or what Theodora meant when she thought that Jesus was an avatar of God
[10:42] Chraeloos: An illusion Arabella, why?
[10:42] Chraeloos: Agreed Rhia
[10:42] Arabella Eyre: RL an illusion?
[10:43] darcon Xue: there is not such separation from god
[10:43] Chraeloos: “Allowing us to think there is something greater than ourselves”
[10:43] Calliope Novaland: who knows, what is illusion
[10:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, an appearance of a greater realtiy. So RL is first life, and then there is Zeroth Life, the life of the soul
[10:43] Arabella Eyre: It all became clear when I tried to explain the reality of SL to my husband
[10:43] darcon Xue: you can see yourself as a manifestation of it
[10:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Arabella, yes, that’s what I mean when I say SL can help you understand mysticism
[10:43] Chraeloos: So they are all equal Rhia?
[10:44] Chraeloos: one is not “greater” than the next?
[10:44] darcon Xue: they are one πŸ™‚
[10:45] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, equally real, but not as genuine
[10:45] Chraeloos: Perhaps darcon, what makes you think that?
[10:45] darcon Xue: I am one with you πŸ™‚
[10:45] Chraeloos: interesting word choice rhia. Why “geniune”?
[10:46] Arabella Eyre: We seems more free to be who we know ourselves to be?
[10:46] Chraeloos: Confounding Arabella. lol
[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’m influenced by Vlatos, who tried to figure out what levels of reality meant. And he conclued it was line art work–where some are more genuine that others. What if you took from a Touloose Latrecc and added to it? It is not as genuine as ann original, but closer than a true fake
[10:47] druth Vlodovic: if we assume an underlying layer of reality things get complicated very quickly
[10:47] darcon Xue: Know thyself
[10:47] Chraeloos: Are you suggesting that we are what we make ourselves to be, Arabella?
[10:47] druth Vlodovic: we’d need fate to create the situations that get mirrored in “material reality”
[10:47] Chraeloos: Ok Rhia, that makes sense.
[10:47] Arabella Eyre: It’s a sliding scale. More free in SL, less free in RL.
[10:47] Chraeloos: Why fate, druth?
[10:48] druth Vlodovic: let’s say I get brain damaed and can no longer control my enotions
[10:48] darcon Xue: we are creating ourself right now
[10:48] druth Vlodovic: for this to happen to this layer it would need to happen to my underlayer as well
[10:48] darcon Xue: ourselves*
[10:48] Chraeloos: Finding truths, darcon?
[10:48] darcon Xue: no πŸ™‚
[10:48] druth Vlodovic: which means that what happens in material reality would be able to affect the underlayer
[10:48] darcon Xue: making choices πŸ™‚
[10:48] Arabella Eyre: From 48 years of deeds already done, and choices already made, in my case.
[10:49] Chraeloos: Fair enough darcon πŸ™‚
[10:49] druth Vlodovic: or else the underlayer would have to run about creating things that we see reflected in the material layer
[10:49] darcon Xue: “what would you like to be right now? ”
[10:49] darcon Xue: I am love πŸ™‚
[10:49] Chraeloos: Also zen, darcon haha
[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, “As it is on Earth, it is in Heaven?”
[10:49] Chraeloos: Druth, that’s an interesting perspective.
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: The battles of the nations refelting the battles among the angels (as in Daniel)
[10:50] darcon Xue: πŸ˜€
[10:50] druth Vlodovic: we spend all this time trying to make them correlate
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, sure beats working
[10:50] druth Vlodovic: why not just have one layer and different perspectives on it
[10:50] druth Vlodovic: occam’s razor
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, it’s all one layer, just different levels
[10:50] Chraeloos: I like to think that things can work randomly and independently, but something tells me that’s not true. Of course, everything needs a cause – cause and effect – but that makes me uncomfrotable.
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: My opinion, anyway
[10:51] Chraeloos: Sorry, typos.
[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: Why does universal causation make you uncomfortable, Chrae
[10:51] druth Vlodovic: your discomfort is probably the result of social conditioning chrae
[10:51] Chraeloos: I’m not sure. I’ve been trying to hit that nail on the head for a while.
[10:51] Chraeloos: That’s possible druth.
[10:51] darcon Xue: we are 100% responsibe, Chrael πŸ™‚
[10:52] Chraeloos: I don’t mean responsibility, darcon.
[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: For some people, it means we are all fated, and for other’s it means no free will. That makes a lot of people uncomfortable
[10:52] Chraeloos: It’s farther back from that, I’m zooming out haha.
[10:52] darcon Xue: πŸ˜€
[10:52] Arabella Eyre: You mean, it bothers you that there might be an “umbrella” plan?
[10:52] Chraeloos: I guess it’s more of a lack of comfort because of independence. I don’t like the idea of relying on each other, but of course that’s our nature, how we came to exist.
[10:53] Chraeloos: And in a causation sense, we are all relying on each other for our “fates”
[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: One question I have for you Arabella
[10:53] Calliope Novaland: why don’t you like that idea? that is our strenght I think
[10:53] Arabella Eyre: Yes, Rhia?
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Where the heck are you? I see your tag, but not you. Unless you’re hidding under arcon
[10:54] Chraeloos: Lack of trust, Calliope. I have very little trust in the “umbrella” sense of society. As a whole, I don’t trust us. As individuals, I do.
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, we can till be independent, in the sense of autonomous, or self reliant, and there be universal causation or even interepenence
[10:54] Arabella Eyre: I’m recling on a double cushion to your left, I think.
[10:54] Chraeloos: I think so too, Arabella.
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: ok, now I see you. Had to zoom out
[10:55] Calliope Novaland: not the umbrella sense of one umbrella for all, that is not human scale. but building a web of individual souls is the answer I thing
[10:55] Chraeloos: I realize that, Rhia. But the thought still makes me uncomfortable.
[10:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s an immersive trait i Have. Have to see everyone
[10:55] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles at Rhia.
[10:55] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds pats Chrae on the need and rubs her leg
[10:55] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[10:55] Chraeloos: What’s the difference Calliope?
[10:55] druth Vlodovic: hmm, a not on “fate”
[10:55] Calliope Novaland: scale
[10:56] druth Vlodovic: take anything that exists and follow the path it took to becoem what it is and how it is
[10:56] druth Vlodovic: there is only one path
[10:56] druth Vlodovic: lol, hence “destiny”
[10:56] Calliope Novaland: I am concerned with those I know, those that live where I do
[10:56] Chraeloos: Yes Calliope.
[10:56] Chraeloos: druth, are you talking in the past or looking into the future?
[10:57] Calliope Novaland: too much “concern” at a global level is having devastaing results
[10:57] druth Vlodovic: looking into the past
[10:57] Chraeloos: Sure is, Calliope.
[10:57] druth Vlodovic: but when we imagine this into the future we get prophecies
[10:57] Arabella Eyre: YOu reminded me of a book Crae
[10:57] Arabella Eyre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
[10:57] druth Vlodovic: and the ones that seem to fit the new reality are called “true” when they are no such thing
[10:57] Chraeloos: druth, do you think prophecies hold truth?
[10:58] Chraeloos: Ah ok, too slow lol
[10:58] Chraeloos: Oh that looks interesting Arabella
[10:58] druth Vlodovic: they hold the truth that someone had info and the ability to extrapolate
[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: Hmmm. I’ll retaliate and cite “Extraordinary Mass Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.”
[10:58] Chraeloos: I already disagree with the title lol
[10:58] druth Vlodovic: and considering how powerful the unknown regions of the mind are…
[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: Witchcraft histeria, tulipomania
[10:58] Arabella Eyre: I didn’t read it, but there was a RabioLab episode on NPR that explored the notion.
[10:58] Chraeloos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thanks, Crae
[10:59] ChraeloosChraeloos nods at Rhia.
[10:59] Arabella Eyre: There are probably more of those Chrae
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: A little out of date, but gets the point aross
[10:59] Chraeloos: druth, that is true. There’s so much we have yet to know about
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: The phantom gasser
[10:59] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds laughs
[10:59] darcon Xue: Prophecies plot has but it does not imposes.
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not to mention the sim that was on lock ddown beccause eeryone the owner knew was me.
[11:00] druth Vlodovic: the big thing people like about fate is that it doesn’t matter how much we screw up because it is never wholly “our fault”
[11:00] darcon Xue: Prophecies are made to fail.
[11:00] Vase red roses: Calliope Novaland donated $50
[11:00] Chraeloos: druth, that makes me uncomfortable too.
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Prophecies always succeed, darcon. For if they don’t, we merely don’t understand the
[11:00] Chraeloos: Thanks Calliope! HUGGIES
[11:00] druth Vlodovic: πŸ™‚ welcome to agnosticism char
[11:00] Calliope Novaland: Huggies Chrae!
[11:01] Chraeloos: Ok guys, that’s the hour, but feel free to stick around and chat.
[11:01] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
If you want an invite to the group let me know πŸ™‚
Thanks for coming everyone! Feel free to stick around and discuss, we’re always open.
[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Whew!
[11:01] Sedona: huggies ty !!!
[11:01] Calliope Novaland: Fate is one of the many things that relieve people from taking action I think
[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Quite a lively discussion today. Thanks, guys
[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Calliope, I think I’ll take a chance on fate.
[11:01] druth Vlodovic: because there is no personal consequence
[11:01] Chraeloos: I think it’s an excuse, Rhia, for people to behave badly. Some times, not always of course.
[11:02] Calliope Novaland: Yes, I enjoy this. Thank you all!
[11:02] druth Vlodovic: but this is the purpose of underlying reality
[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: The madness of crowds, CChrae?
[11:02] Chraeloos: lol, always Rhia
[11:02] druth Vlodovic: something that moves us despite our wishes and that we can’t damage
[11:02] Chraeloos: Thanks so much Arabella! HUGGIES
[11:02] darcon Xue: if they succeed, we got it as fate.
[11:02] druth Vlodovic: hence, no consequence from our own actions
[11:02] Arabella Eyre: Thanks for the discussion. Time for the illusion of work. Bye all.
[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: It was prophecied that no one would believe prophecies until it was too late
[11:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, I have to go to that higher reality for a bit
[11:03] Chraeloos: Yeah druth, I don’t like that concept. I think people need to take responsibility for their actions, or everyone will do whatever they please. Which isn’t always bad but there’s always one spoiled egg.
[11:03] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Arabella, TC!
[11:03] darcon Xue: Have a nice time Arabella love πŸ™‚
[11:03] Calliope Novaland: oh that’s good. one of the prophecies has to be true haha
[11:03] Chraeloos: lol Calliope
[11:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, we ccan be responsible and fated. One of the best discussions of that wasn’t really a discussion. The only good thing to come out of the LeHeye series–Assassins
[11:04] Chraeloos: Rhia, I haven’t heard of that, fiction?
[11:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s part of the Left Behind series
[11:04] druth Vlodovic: the “only”? I take it you’re not recommending the book then
[11:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: And in it, a group of Christian teerrorists decide to take out the anti-Christ
[11:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: They do it entirely of their own free will
[11:04] Chraeloos: Oh ok
[11:05] Chraeloos: Looks interesting
[11:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: Fated Free Will
[11:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: And bring about the part of Revelation where the AntiChrist dies, undergoes a false resurrection and is infused with the Spirit of Satan
[11:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, great, chat lag. lol
[11:05] Chraeloos: uhoh Rhia, always a danger on this realm.
[11:05] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles.
[11:05] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[11:06] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, well, it’s a series of about 24 books. The first was hack fiction, but interesting. And it’s a very long series
[11:06] Chraeloos: Jeez, every time I go to a discussion at least three books get added to me “to read” list.
[11:06] Rhiannon of the Birds: Very popular; posits the world post-Rapture. What happens when, apparently at random, a billion people just vanish
[11:06] druth Vlodovic: ugh, as if “battlefield earth” wasn’t bad enough
[11:06] ChraeloosChraeloos raises her eyebrows.
[11:06] druth Vlodovic: that was only ten books
[11:07] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, Leheye and his co author’s ministry became very wealthy from it
[11:07] Calliope Novaland: sounds like a good story Rhi
[11:07] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, and they have another series–the whole thing rewritten from the point of vview of the President of the United States
[11:07] Chraeloos: Wish I could write series that would make me really wealthy…lol
[11:07] Chraeloos: Euw, Rhia.
[11:07] Chraeloos: lol
[11:07] druth Vlodovic: pick a religious theme and sell it in the US πŸ™‚
[11:07] Rhiannon of the Birds: It atually is, as long as you don’t take the theology too seriously. They have odd interpretations of some things, like the 144,000
[11:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s not deep, except for the one book, hence my comment. But it is entertaining
[11:08] Calliope Novaland: take theology seriously? haha
[11:08] Chraeloos: lol druth, sad and true.
[11:08] druth Vlodovic: that’s the number of norse warriors who live in valhalla
[11:08] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[11:08] Chraeloos: Ah entertainment value, I wonder when this will stop haha.
[11:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, really? Interesting
[11:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: 12 x 12 Ii wonder if there’s an archetype
[11:09] Chraeloos: I’m thinking the topic for next week will be Zeno of Elea, on movement being impossible. Anyone interested?
[11:09] druth Vlodovic: I wish I could remember where I got that from,
[11:09] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, that sounds great, hrae
[11:09] ChraeloosChraeloos smiles.
[11:09] Chraeloos: I thought so too.
[11:09] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’ll ldo some checking up on summing infinities, which is the modern way to get around the paradoxes. Don’t think it works
[11:10] Rhiannon of the Birds: Ecept it does explain why your pet turtle dies if you shoot an arrow through its head
[11:10] Chraeloos: That will be interesting to hear about Rhia.
[11:10] ChraeloosChraeloos claps her hands to her mouth.
[11:10] Rhiannon of the Birds: A scene from a movie, where a guy takes Xeno’s paradoxes a little too seriously
[11:10] Rhiannon of the Birds: Forget the movie’s title though
[11:11] Chraeloos: …not a bad thing to forget…lol
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: A blend of Achilles and the Tortoise, and the arrow paradox
[11:11] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: I assume.
[11:11] Chraeloos: I assumed so too
[11:11] druth Vlodovic: I prefer kicking a rock
[11:11] druth Vlodovic: unless you really plan to make soup
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, yeah, safer, unless you brak your toe
[11:12] Chraeloos: Depends how big the rock is
[11:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not with your pet turtle, druth
[11:12] Chraeloos: turtle soup, druth?
[11:12] druth Vlodovic: “Nadine noodle soup”
[11:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: I like Mock Turtle soup myself
[11:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Clears the sinuses
[11:12] Calliope Novaland: thanks for the great discussion everyone. I must be off
[11:12] druth Vlodovic: mock turtles are hard to find, I think the French ate them all 😦
[11:13] Calliope Novaland: see you soon!
[11:13] Sedona: waves..huggies..
[11:13] Chraeloos: TC Calliope, thanks for coming!
[11:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: bye, Callipee!
[11:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, need to eat before my next SL romp.
[11:13] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[11:13] Chraeloos: Gosh guys, I never heard of turtle soup before
[11:14] Chraeloos: But since it’s french I guess it’s because I’m cheap
[11:14] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles.
[11:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: It’s best with sauteed snails
[11:14] Chraeloos: ><
[11:15] druth Vlodovic: snails are good
[11:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: And just remembaear, anything is better with ketchup
[11:15] Sedona: thank you all !! blowing kisses around…waves..
[11:15] druth Vlodovic: ugh, heathen!
[11:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, except liver. Nothing, not even MSG, can fix that
[11:15] Chraeloos: Thanks Sedona, TC!
[11:15] darcon Xue: waves love πŸ™‚
[11:15] Sedona: β™₯
[11:15] Chraeloos: hugs all around πŸ™‚
[11:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: bye all!
[11:15] Chraeloos: TC Rhia, thanks for coming!
[11:16] darcon Xue: hugs Chraelove πŸ™‚
[11:16] druth Vlodovic: I’m going to wait until everyone is gone then say goodbye so I don’t miss anyone
[11:16] darcon Xue: Have a nice meal Rhia love πŸ™‚
[11:16] Chraeloos: lol druth, I live here so good luck ever escaping
[11:16] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I won’t keep you, then, druth
[11:16] druth Vlodovic: oops πŸ™‚
[11:16] Chraeloos: lol
[11:17] darcon Xue: πŸ™‚
[11:18] darcon Xue: see you loves πŸ™‚
[11:18] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds waves and poofs
[11:18] darcon Xue: Thank you πŸ™‚
[11:18] druth Vlodovic: thanks for the discussion
[11:18] druth Vlodovic: it was interesting
[11:18] druth Vlodovic: have fun
[11:18] Chraeloos: thanks for coming! TC

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