Weekly Update – Feb 18 2012


Alright guys. I know I haven’t been posting reviews for the events. I apologize. I really haven’t had time, with the new job and all.

So – updates! The magazine is coming along nicely. Do let me know if you want your artwork or writing included – either through comments, in SL (Chraeloos), or email (laurajones@epithetandsynonym.biz). Otherwise, we are starting a new event, as I posted here, on Thursdays at 4pmSLT. Rhiannon and I are hosting, and it will be held at E&S.

This week held a metric-ton of awesome discussions. I can’t even list all the ones I went to, but there must have been over 15. A particularly awesome one was today at Edutopia, Geekspeak (noonSLT every Saturday). I’ve got the transcript below. We discussed alien life forms and ended up attempting to create a list of criteria for what we would look for on other planets. It was really interesting. Also, Tuesday’s discussion at E&S went really well. We discussed Hume and some of his ideas. I ended up talking as Hume, since his ideas are fairly abstract, and it was a lot of fun and everyone learned a lot. That’s where the idea for everyone taking on a different philosopher or scientist on the Thursday discussions came from.

Sedona Resident was kind enough to put her art up at E&S. There’s six photo’s total of hers, in the upstairs gallery. Please do tip, as she really deserves it, and they aren’t for sale.

I don’t think I wrote about Corona’s lecture last sunday either. Almost 10 people came, and surprisingly not all the same ones from the week before. It was Part 3 of the invention and evolution of religion and magic. Part 4 comes tomorrow at noonSLT, and I hope to see you there!

Upcoming events this week at E&S:

  • Sunday, Feb 19 2012, noonSLT – Corona Anatine Lecture, Part 4 Invention and Evolution of Religion/Magic
  • Tuesday, Feb 21 2012, 10amSLT – Philosophy and Literature, Avicenna on life-forms and the universe.
  • Thursday, Feb 23 2012, 4pmSLT – Philosophy Masquerade
  • Sunday, Feb 26 20120, noonSLT – Corona Anatine Lecture, Topic TBA

Transcript for Geekspeak Saturday Feb 18, 2012:

[12:07] Erik Goff: welcome again to geekspeak everyone. today we are discussing ‘alien life’ and what form it could take
[12:07] Erik Goff: most scientists think in this solar system we can find extremopphiles only, no complex life… outside out solar system there could be a lot of lifeforms due to the sheer numbe rof planets
[12:08] Erik Goff: as of now there are 2 earth like exoplanets discovered. much more to be expected
[12:08] Erik Goff: but if we look close to home, how could life look like on the moon Europa ?
[12:09] Kathen Ohtobide: Why shouldn’t there be complex life there?
[12:09] Vulcan Viper: If Kathen is asking this about extremophiles, then I agree.
[12:09] Erik Goff: i saw one astronomer seriously debate it could be looking like huge, km-wide flowers to collect the last of sunlight . he was an established astronomer lol, but wasnt taken very seriously at that particular talk
[12:10] Bryce Galbraith: I remember reading The Selfish Gene, where Dawkins was really trying to get at the idea of a replicator… that’s where the whole idea of a meme came in — as a hypothetical example πŸ™‚
[12:10] Kathen Ohtobide: He should have been taken seriously Erik
[12:10] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper agrees.
[12:10] Kathen Ohtobide: That is the trouble with scientists, no imagination
[12:10] Kathen Ohtobide: They are so afraid of being laughed at
[12:11] Erik Goff: i had a really interesting siscussion last week about abiogenesis, he claimed that before there was bilology as we know it, tgere were chemical elements called replicators. they on itself had an evulution process
[12:11] Vulcan Viper: Unless…might that person not have been taken seriously, because there’s just too much evidense against?
[12:11] Chraeloos: Agreed Kathen, and you see it everywhere. But I think it’s less of no imagination than of no “fictional” imagination. They come up with new ideas constantly, but only if they can “prove” them
[12:12] Erik Goff: well vulcan, the audience didnt take into account that not only sisible sunlight is energy from the sun. of course there is a lot of radiation and solar wind even on far planets
[12:12] Erik Goff: visible*
[12:12] Bryce Galbraith: I guess that’s the difference between ‘hard science fiction’ compared to sci-fi where the author has taken more liberties…
[12:13] Kathen Ohtobide: To be fair, I don’t know why flowers would need light
[12:13] Erik Goff: the problem that i have with the big flower theory is that it would be hard for a flower to collect so much material to grow, on europa
[12:13] Vulcan Viper: Don’t flowers convert sunlight into someething else?
[12:13] Kathen Ohtobide: Leaves do Vulcan
[12:13] Kathen Ohtobide: or at least they use sunlight
[12:14] Chraeloos: Good point Bryce
[12:14] Vulcan Viper: And leaves are part of flowers, right?
[12:14] Kathen Ohtobide: to gather carbon from the air
[12:14] Kathen Ohtobide: Well, I though Erik meant specifically flowers
[12:14] Bryce Galbraith: well, the ‘flowering’ part has a different function… so you could perhaps speak of a giant fern-like thing that could use sunlight/radiation.
[12:14] Kathen Ohtobide: i.e. petals, stamens, that sort of thing
[12:14] Erik Goff: no, not flowers, ut ‘giant leaves’
[12:15] Kathen Ohtobide: I see nothing absurd about giant leaves
[12:15] Chraeloos: I don’t see why life can only take one form. We were an accident after all, why could there not be other accidents in completely different forms?
[12:15] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper agrees with Chraeloos.
[12:15] Kathen Ohtobide: I think what will really be interesting is to see if life outside Earth uses DNA
[12:15] Erik Goff: me neither, except for the material question. where does it get that form . unless there is a lot of biomaterial in the european sea
[12:15] Kathen Ohtobide: lol, Europan sea
[12:16] Erik Goff: lol indeed. thans
[12:16] Erik Goff: x
[12:16] Kathen Ohtobide: Plenty of biomaterial in the European sea
[12:16] Erik Goff: haha
[12:16] Vulcan Viper: πŸ™‚
[12:16] Bryce Galbraith: I was thinking just now that maybe instead of a double helix you’d have a triple helix DNA-like structure…
[12:16] Chraeloos: would we recognise it even if we came face to face with it?
[12:16] Kathen Ohtobide: Good question Chrae
[12:16] Vulcan Viper: Indeed.
[12:16] Chraeloos: Or any other multiples, Bryce
[12:16] Kathen Ohtobide: and the answer is, we just don’t know
[12:17] Erik Goff: i think it could be. i dont see why only DNA as we know it could replicate
[12:17] Bryce Galbraith: oh, good question Chraeloos… possibly… or possibly not, if it is so different from what we can recognize.
[12:17] Kathen Ohtobide: Bryce, how would replication work with 3 strands?
[12:17] Vulcan Viper: I’m reminded of that video were dolphins were said to try to convince humans of something.
[12:17] Bryce Galbraith: Oh, I have no idea Kathen πŸ™‚ I’m being completely speculative here
[12:17] Vulcan Viper: The same video as where the number 42 was mentioned.
[12:17] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper tries to remember the name.
[12:18] Bryce Galbraith: 42? The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy?
[12:18] Bryce Galbraith: πŸ™‚
[12:18] Erik Goff: to answer that chaer, we should define ‘life’ first. in our current terms a christal could be alive since it can replicate itself, but a mule would not
[12:18] Vulcan Viper: Hitchhiker’s…yep!
[12:18] Bryce Galbraith: one of my favorite books of all time πŸ™‚
[12:18] Chraeloos: We can’t define life, though, if it comes in forms we don’t know of.
[12:18] Kathen Ohtobide: Do we need to define life?
[12:18] Erik Goff: lol indeed. the movie sucks though
[12:19] Bryce Galbraith: yeah, I was just about to go there too Kathen…
[12:19] Kathen Ohtobide: If we stick to a definition we won’t recognise something quite different
[12:19] Chraeloos: Agreed Kathen
[12:19] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, the film of a few years ago was pretty bad… they really didn’t understand the book…
[12:19] Vulcan Viper: Yes, Kathen. If we are to answer a question, we must agree on a definition for the term(s) used *in* that question.
[12:19] Bryce Galbraith: So life needs to 1) be able to reproduce
[12:19] Bryce Galbraith: what else?
[12:19] Erik Goff: you could define life just the same as porn… ‘ i recognise it when i see it ‘ ( some president said that in a debate)
[12:19] Chraeloos: Some people may define life as a conscious being. But we don’t know what makes something conscious, so how would we recognize if it is?
[12:19] Bryce Galbraith: 2) uses energy?
[12:20] Erik Goff: well yes some form of metabolism
[12:20] Bryce Galbraith: yeah… metabolism… sounds good.
[12:20] Bryce Galbraith: Chraeloos, I think being conscious would be a further distinction between simpler and more complex forms of life…
[12:20] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper regrets that Lulu isn’t here.
[12:20] Chraeloos: Something that does not have a mouth, eyes, or even fingers may not be able to communicate to us that it is conscious.
[12:20] Erik Goff: actually any chemical reaction.. even christal forming.. could be called metabolism
[12:20] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, Lulu would be all over this topic πŸ™‚
[12:21] Chraeloos: True Bryce
[12:21] Bryce Galbraith: So… 1) reproduce, 2) metabolism, 3) ????
[12:21] Bryce Galbraith: What do crystals NOT do that disqualifies them as life? Or maybe they are? (silicate?)
[12:22] Kathen Ohtobide: well, I would just have one requirement, a complex system that responds to its environment
[12:22] Vulcan Viper: /tries to remember the criteria Dr. Crusher mentioned in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
[12:22] Erik Goff: crystals doe not ectively react on their environment
[12:22] Chraeloos: Good point Kathen
[12:22] Vulcan Viper: …reproduce…succrete…excrete…not sure of the spelling.
[12:22] Bryce Galbraith: hmmm… life adapts to its environment?
[12:23] Bryce Galbraith: is that a good way of phrasing that?
[12:23] Kathen Ohtobide: Responds rather than adapts
[12:23] Erik Goff: nothing adapts in evolution, thats a thought error many people make
[12:23] Bryce Galbraith: okay… responds..
[12:23] Kathen Ohtobide: Adapts suggests that it makes use of its environment
[12:23] Bryce Galbraith: or maybe ‘response to stimuli’?
[12:23] Erik Goff: things die and theones that are accidentally different survive. it looks like adaptation but isnt
[12:23] Bryce Galbraith: good point Erik
[12:24] Kathen Ohtobide: Well, don’t go too far Erik
[12:24] Vulcan Viper: Natural selection then?
[12:24] Kathen Ohtobide: Individual organisms can adapt
[12:24] Chraeloos: Yeah, my teachers throughout school taught that very wrong
[12:24] Bryce Galbraith: or I suppose you might say the totality of a species adapts, but individual members don’t… that’s probably a side topic though.
[12:24] Kathen Ohtobide: The ability to adapt is an important result of evolution
[12:24] Kathen Ohtobide: Animals adapt to the cold by growing more hair
[12:25] Kathen Ohtobide: Plants change the shape of their leaves
[12:25] Kathen Ohtobide: and their thickness
[12:25] Bryce Galbraith: Vulcan’s comment about excreting … maybe that’s part of having a metabolism?
[12:25] Erik Goff: well i think you have another kind of ‘adapt’ in mind kathen. living animals can indeed adapt on direct threats in th eenvironment, but thats not the same as evolutionary adaptation
[12:25] Chraeloos: That’s another problem. If we were to spot something, how could we gage if it responds if it were to respond over a long period of time?
[12:25] Bryce Galbraith: great question Chraeloos…
[12:26] Bryce Galbraith: that sounds like it would indeed be a problem πŸ™‚
[12:26] Chraeloos: ie. how long would we wait to find out?
[12:26] Bryce Galbraith: Just keeping track.. so far I have: 1) reproduce, 2) metabolism, 3) responds to stimuli (over some indeterminate period of time)
[12:27] Bryce Galbraith: I think we are making progress… we can rule out sand and rocks and even crystals now I think πŸ™‚
[12:27] Erik Goff: good question chrae. but i think there is no such thing as a slow chemical reaction. there mus tbe some speed treshold i think in reactions below which no life can occur
[12:28] Chraeloos: Well, trees change over hundreds of years. It’s not necessarily a visual change
[12:28] Bryce Galbraith: Ah, here’s a question — could you conceivably have a species made up of energy? That’s appeared in science fiction some.. possible? or pretty unlikely?
[12:28] Chraeloos: so would it be safe to introduce our own chemicals into the situation to “test” if it would respond to a chemical reaction?
[12:29] Erik Goff: 100’s yes, but i dont think a tree can exsist that takes 100000’s of years to grow
[12:29] Kathen Ohtobide: Bryce, can you have just energy floating around?
[12:29] Kathen Ohtobide: Surely it must be something
[12:29] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper found that ST:TNG episode: Home Soil.
[12:29] Chraeloos: That depends Erik, if it were to be far away from an energy source, perhaps it would.
[12:29] Kathen Ohtobide: Erik, why not?
[12:29] Bryce Galbraith: Maybe a pattern in energy… hmm…
[12:30] Erik Goff: the reason i think that kathen is that any chemical reaction in a living thing does occur with some minimum speed
[12:30] Chraeloos: In the laws we recognize, Erik.
[12:30] Bryce Galbraith: I’m starting to discount that idea of life taking form as pure energy I think… if I’m being critical…
[12:31] Bryce Galbraith: this is a good topic πŸ™‚
[12:31] Kathen Ohtobide: That does not matter since there is no reason to think it would be growing all the time
[12:31] Vulcan Viper: Must have the ability to assimilate, respirate, reproduce, grow and develop, move, secrete, and excrete. Not sure about the spelling of the last two terms.
[12:31] Erik Goff: lol indeed. but there is no reason to assume the laws will change in our universe. maybe parrallel universes yes but thats highly theoretical
[12:31] Kathen Ohtobide: There are plenty of trees on Earth with arrested growth
[12:31] Bryce Galbraith: I think ‘secrete’ and ‘excrete’ are about the same thing?
[12:32] Kathen Ohtobide: No, excrete means getting rid of rubbish
[12:32] Bryce Galbraith: is secreting different?
[12:32] Chraeloos: Why not Erik? we can’t say our laws apply to every single galaxy or solar system.
[12:32] Kathen Ohtobide: You secrete saliva, you excrete urine
[12:32] Bryce Galbraith: ok
[12:33] Erik Goff: i dont see why a form of energy could not live by your above definition of life bryce 1) reproduce, 2) metabolism, 3) responds to stimuli
[12:33] Bryce Galbraith: How would light reproduce Erik?
[12:33] Erik Goff: a point lighning ( not sure on the english term ) could be life in this definition
[12:33] Bryce Galbraith: *energy…
[12:33] Erik Goff: lightning*
[12:34] Bryce Galbraith: point lightning? ‘ball lightning’ maybe?
[12:34] Erik Goff: ah yes ball*
[12:34] Kathen Ohtobide: Well, it is not complex enough for my definition
[12:34] Kathen Ohtobide: but I see what you mean
[12:35] Vulcan Viper: @Erik: If you’re not sure of a word, say it in Dutch. I will see that as a request for an attempt on my part.
[12:35] Kathen Ohtobide: I think they can reproduce in a way
[12:35] Erik Goff: maybe add to our definition that it actively has to seek out afood source
[12:36] Bryce Galbraith: hmmm… this is good… yeah, I can see yeah…
[12:36] Erik Goff: then crystals and ball lightning are excluded
[12:36] Chraeloos: Could a food source come from itself?
[12:36] Erik Goff: but then again i wonder if a bacteria withoug flagellum ( tail) would be ‘life’
[12:37] Bryce Galbraith: hmmm….
[12:37] Chraeloos: For instance, energy is a form of “nutrition”, so if something could cannibalize itself?
[12:37] Kathen Ohtobide: There are plenty of animals that just sit there and let food come to them
[12:37] Erik Goff: you cannot eat yourself chrae
[12:37] Chraeloos: You can lol, if our cells were to reprodue quick enough
[12:37] Bryce Galbraith: Oh… does life necessarily … die? Could you hypothetically have a form of life that is immortal?
[12:37] Kathen Ohtobide: I don’t see why not Bryce
[12:38] Kathen Ohtobide: Indeed most bacteria are potentially immortal
[12:38] Chraeloos: That’s what I mean Bryce. If energy could reproduce quick enough it could suck life from itself?
[12:38] Erik Goff: well but you will eat your own energy lol. you will need more energy then you eat to grow. which means you will have eaten yourself after a while
[12:38] Bryce Galbraith: Interesting Chraeloos — you just characterized an Ourobous πŸ™‚
[12:38] Bryce Galbraith: eating its own tail…
[12:38] Chraeloos: A what?
[12:38] Chraeloos: XD
[12:39] Bryce Galbraith: ouroboros … not sure on spelling
[12:39] Erik Goff: how can a bacteria be immortal kathen ?
[12:39] Chraeloos: Oh the snake type thing?
[12:39] Kathen Ohtobide: Well, they do die of course, but potentially they are immortal
[12:39] Bryce Galbraith: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Ouroboros-simple.svg/200px-Ouroboros-simple.svg.png
[12:39] Erik Goff: ouroboros is good. the famous snake that bites its own tail , used in alchemy in the medieval times
[12:39] Chraeloos: Oh yes
[12:39] Bryce Galbraith: yeah, the snake thing πŸ™‚
[12:39] Chraeloos: lol
[12:39] Chraeloos: I didn’t know thats what it was called
[12:40] Chraeloos: But yeah, there must be a process like that that’s feasible.
[12:40] Kathen Ohtobide: No, Chrae, surely not.
[12:40] Kathen Ohtobide: It is against the law of entropy
[12:40] Erik Goff: but its an interesting question. the only reason we age and die is due to replication errors in our DNA i can imagine a form of life without thise errors
[12:41] Chraeloos: Again we come to laws. We can’t guarantee that they are the same elsewhere
[12:41] Erik Goff: in fact maybe evolution will one day make such life, which means the end of all other life lol
[12:41] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper doesn’t understand Kathen.
[12:41] Chraeloos: Good point Erik
[12:41] Kathen Ohtobide: Energy flows through a system
[12:41] Kathen Ohtobide: and becomes less and less usable
[12:41] Kathen Ohtobide: so every complex system needs input from elsewhere
[12:42] Bryce Galbraith: Oh! I like that Kathen… is life necessarily part of a system… an ecosystem shall we say? πŸ™‚
[12:42] Kathen Ohtobide: lol, well I was talking just about the snake
[12:42] Kathen Ohtobide: and how impossible it would be
[12:42] Kathen Ohtobide: but you have a point
[12:42] Bryce Galbraith: yeah.. but I was playing off a couple things you said and adding a bit πŸ™‚
[12:42] Chraeloos: That is a good question Bryce
[12:43] Kathen Ohtobide: certainly on Earth I think all organisms coexist with others
[12:43] Erik Goff: on our above definition bryce, that is needs to actively seek metabolism, it of course is part of an ecosystem
[12:43] Erik Goff: even if that ecosystem is on Titan lol
[12:43] Chraeloos: The ecosystem may not be something we recognize either
[12:43] Bryce Galbraith: Erik, is ‘metabolism’ something that is sought? I usually think of it as something life forms … do…
[12:43] Kathen Ohtobide: In theory you could have a planet where only one kind of life existed
[12:44] Bryce Galbraith: yeah, recognizing life might be hard enough but I can easily see that we wouldn’t recognize an ecosystem…
[12:44] Kathen Ohtobide: Indeed we did have on Earth when there were only bacteria
[12:44] Vulcan Viper: “Organisms”, Kathen? Need I remind you of that ST:TNG episode where crystals were found, that were found to be alive, even if inorganic?
[12:44] Erik Goff: earth was such a planet kathen, 3.5 bln years ago . for a moment then lol
[12:44] Kathen Ohtobide: Yes it was
[12:44] Kathen Ohtobide: lol, not just for a momenbt
[12:44] Kathen Ohtobide: Sorry, moment
[12:45] Kathen Ohtobide: I don’t know Vulcan.
[12:45] Kathen Ohtobide: I can’t see crystals as life
[12:45] Erik Goff: lol alongmoment. i just learned that a ‘moment’ officially is an old english term for 1.5 minute… so a bit longer then that
[12:45] Kathen Ohtobide: lol
[12:45] Vulcan Viper: Then maybe you should see this: Star Trek: TNG – Home Soil.
[12:46] Kathen Ohtobide: Yes, I think I remember the episode
[12:46] Erik Goff: amazing you know all those titles
[12:46] Bryce Galbraith: πŸ™‚
[12:46] Vulcan Viper: You’re a Trekkie, or you aren’t. πŸ˜€
[12:46] Bryce Galbraith: What about more interesting life forms? something more complex than single-celled organisms and such?
[12:47] Kathen Ohtobide: Well, what about them? I am sure we are not alone
[12:47] Chraeloos: Surely not
[12:47] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper is tempted to switch to his Star Trek uniform, but isn’t sure if that’s allowed by UFS.
[12:47] Bryce Galbraith: what might be some of the distinguishing features between simpler life forms and more complex ones?
[12:47] Bryce Galbraith: what is UFS?
[12:47] Kathen Ohtobide: Multicellularity
[12:48] Vulcan Viper: United Federation Starfleet.
[12:48] Kathen Ohtobide: Eukaryotes
[12:48] Erik Goff: i just realize something interesting. are 2 cells 1 lifeform? they have 2 metabolic systems. it only gets a species if there is a full development with a stomach etc.
[12:48] Bryce Galbraith: okay.. multicellularity… or perhaps just ‘complex structure’ if a life forms has something besides ‘cells’ as we understand them?
[12:48] Kathen Ohtobide: Yes, ok, though I can’t think what
[12:49] Kathen Ohtobide: but that is a failure of imagination
[12:49] Bryce Galbraith: neither can I πŸ™‚
[12:49] Erik Goff: some yellyfish is i believe a conglomerate of cells. many lifeforms, not 1
[12:49] Kathen Ohtobide: Not strictly jellyfish but I know what you mean
[12:49] Kathen Ohtobide: Some animals may be colonies or single organisms
[12:50] Kathen Ohtobide: and it is really difficult to decide which
[12:50] Chraeloos: Erik, I don’t know enough about biology to say, but I’m sure it’s possible if there’s enough interaction between the cells, ie. if they depend on each other?
[12:50] Chraeloos: Wrong term. We all depend on each other.
[12:50] Kathen Ohtobide: Chraeloos, how if they come together at some times and then split apart again
[12:51] Chraeloos: Hum, I’m not sure Kathen.
[12:51] Vulcan Viper: Symbiosis, perhaps?
[12:51] Kathen Ohtobide: Some people have suggested that a beehive should be seen as a single organism
[12:51] Chraeloos: Ah, I disagree
[12:51] Erik Goff: well eventually they depend on eachother like in our body. but when life was only, say, 2 cells, its hard to say if thats one animal or 2
[12:51] Kathen Ohtobide: Why?
[12:51] Vulcan Viper: Me too, Chraeloos.
[12:52] Chraeloos: I can’t say why, it just seems as if the bees are separate, the hive itself is not alive. It’s like an apartment building.
[12:52] Chraeloos: Good point Erik
[12:52] ChraeloosChraeloos ponders.
[12:52] Kathen Ohtobide: The hive feeds, it reproduces, it responds to the environment
[12:52] Chraeloos: So does a community.
[12:52] Erik Goff: for the same reason as th ebeehive oyu coud argue that humans are one organism
[12:52] Chraeloos: right Erik
[12:53] Kathen Ohtobide: Well, let’s suppose a species that formed hives and visited earth
[12:53] Vulcan Viper: I see Erik’s point. So…what say we draw the line at the point where we can, with the naked eye, distinguish separate entities…or whatever word you’d like to use here.
[12:53] Kathen Ohtobide: They would think we did form organisms
[12:53] Kathen Ohtobide: maybe just one organism
[12:53] Kathen Ohtobide: on the whole Earth, since we all work together
[12:53] Kathen Ohtobide: Would they be wrong
[12:53] Kathen Ohtobide: from their own point of view?
[12:54] Erik Goff: so oyu would say the next evolutionary step is that all humans are beginning to act as 1 lifeform?
[12:54] Erik Goff: we are th eborg lol
[12:54] Erik Goff: resistance is futile
[12:54] Bryce Galbraith: πŸ™‚
[12:54] Kathen Ohtobide: lol, no, I don’t see that evolving
[12:54] Chraeloos: I think they would be wrong Kathen. We work together as a community, but think sepparately.
[12:54] Chraeloos: Ach typing.
[12:54] Kathen Ohtobide: I just mean that if cells sticking together form one organism, then individual organisms can form an organism too
[12:54] Erik Goff: why not? bacteria once ‘decided’ they together could be 1 lifeform
[12:55] Chraeloos: Not unless we morph?
[12:55] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper remembers (again from star Trek): We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours.
[12:55] Vulcan Viper: πŸ˜€
[12:55] Chraeloos: lol Vulcan
[12:55] Bryce Galbraith: I guess the question is perhaps around whether a lifeform has an autonomous existence… at least some of the time.
[12:55] Erik Goff: lol vulcan it seems youre assimilated already
[12:56] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper checks himself and says: “I don’t look like a Borg to myself.” πŸ˜‰
[12:56] Kathen Ohtobide: Bryce, how about slime molds?
[12:56] Vulcan Viper: I should have said “a Borg drone”.
[12:56] Erik Goff: interesting point bryce. could a lifeform decide to split up agian in different lifeforms? maybe compare to some animals that you can split in 2, like worms
[12:57] Bryce Galbraith: hmmm… good points…
[12:57] Vulcan Viper: If that is a criterion for life, then we are not alive.
[12:57] Erik Goff: like maybe 2 bacteria that split up to hunt together and after the hunt join agian
[12:57] Kathen Ohtobide: lol, hunting bacteria?
[12:58] Kathen Ohtobide: That is what slime molds do
[12:58] Bryce Galbraith: heh heh… now there’s a science fiction story… alien species comes to earth and rejects us as a valid lifeform because we don’t fit their criteria πŸ™‚
[12:58] Vulcan Viper: Splitting up and combining again?
[12:58] Erik Goff: ‘hunt’ lol. no rel intellignece involved
[12:58] Kathen Ohtobide: They join some times and then split up again
[12:58] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper shrugs.
[12:58] Erik Goff: hahaha bryce.. earth…mostly harmless. a dead planet
[12:58] Kathen Ohtobide: Bryce, that is why I don’t think we should have criteria
[12:58] Items successfully shared.
[12:59] Bryce Galbraith: point taken.
[12:59] Kathen Ohtobide: They will be sorry they made that mistake
[12:59] Kathen Ohtobide: and we don’t want to make a similar one
[12:59] Bryce Galbraith: So Kathen, are you arguing we don’t need criteria at all?
[12:59] Bryce Galbraith: and then go back to ‘we know life when we see it’?
[12:59] Kathen Ohtobide: Well, I say, life is anything complex that responds to its environment
[13:00] Chraeloos: I don’t think it’s fair to have criteria, but it’s necessary, as long as we are willing to adapt it..heh
[13:00] Erik Goff: a scientist woul dnot be happy with that criterium bryce
[13:00] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper wonders where science will be heading, if we don’t use criteria.
[13:00] Vulcan Viper: Correction: *would* be heading.
[13:01] Kathen Ohtobide: We should take each moon and planet as we find it
[13:01] Kathen Ohtobide: and be open to the possibility that there is some form of life there
[13:01] Kathen Ohtobide: Of course life on Europa may be intelligent
[13:01] Kathen Ohtobide: and we can communicate with it
[13:01] Kathen Ohtobide: who knows?
[13:02] Erik Goff: well thats interesting on itself kathen. for example on Titan, the whole south is sand dunes, and the whole north is lakes. interesting weather patterns there
[13:02] Vulcan Viper: …and be open to the possibility of finding life that doesn’t fit the definition as we know it.
[13:02] Erik Goff: that also has a lot of implications for potential life
[13:02] Kathen Ohtobide: Lakes of what?
[13:02] Kathen Ohtobide: Not water surely?
[13:02] Erik Goff: hydrocarbon lakes. dont light a match there lol
[13:02] Kathen Ohtobide: lol
[13:03] Bryce Galbraith: πŸ™‚
[13:03] Vulcan ViperVulcan Viper remembers an episode of Star Trek: Voyager.
[13:03] Bryce Galbraith: Actually, let’s! It’d be fun!
[13:03] Erik Goff: i guess you can light a match though lol, there will be lightning also. total lack of oxygen me thinks
[13:03] Kathen Ohtobide: Which one Vulcan?
[13:03] Erik Goff: so if there is any life there it would not be based on oxygen
[13:03] Vulcan Viper: I’m not sure of the title, but to give you a very brief description…
[13:04] Erik Goff: a bit strange though since oxygen is very abundant in the universe
[13:04] Vulcan Viper: The crew take a shuttle to a planet. They enter the atmosphere, and some kind of explosion occurs, causing all life on the planet to be destroyed.
[13:05] Vulcan Viper: Not the shuttle crew’s fault, mind you.
[13:05] Bryce Galbraith: hmmm… I don’t remember that episode…
[13:05] Erik Goff: of ocurs enot vulcan, its star trek:)
[13:05] Erik Goff: i do i know its one that comes in 2 parts

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