Twelve people showed up for the discussion today, and most were new faces. It lasted for an hour and the conversation was enthusiastic. No reading was done. Thanks to everyone who came! Transcript below:
[09:39] Chraeloos: Hey Ivy!
[09:39] Chraeloos: How are you?
[09:40] Chraeloos: I’m sure you can have proof, we just dont know how to get it yet
[09:40] Chraeloos: Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist
[09:40] Ivy Sunkiller: never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts
[09:40] Ivy Sunkiller: Russell
[09:40] Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[09:41] gevroe: there is one way you may can proof
[09:41] Chraeloos: Point taken, Ivy haha
[09:41] Ivy Sunkiller: I looked up the author of the document you have linked on the blog
[09:41] Ivy Sunkiller: on the quantum consciousness
[09:42] Chraeloos: yeah?
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: since I find the concept fascinating
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: he has a talk on TEDx
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: on youtubez
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: quite interesting 🙂
[09:42] Chraeloos: Oh really? I have no idea!
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8
[09:42] Chraeloos: thanks
[09:43] Ivy Sunkiller: can sit anywhere?
[09:43] Chraeloos: Yep no problem
[09:43] Ivy Sunkiller: yay 🙂
[09:43] Chraeloos: haha 🙂
[09:43] Chraeloos: You can get a copy of the intro notes on the stage if you want them
[09:44] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller nods nods
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: I want to touch consciousness in my story
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: well, I already did
[09:45] Chraeloos: How will you approach it?
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: I need to fine tune part 2 and publish it 😛
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: I approach it from the engineering pov 🙂
[09:45] Chraeloos: ah, cool
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: sort of ghost-in-the-shell-ish,but not quite
[09:45] gevroe: have you ever heard of standstill operation?
[09:46] Chraeloos: no?
[09:46] gevroe: so this is a way to investigate and prove
[09:46] Ivy Sunkiller: well, gits had “ghosts” that couldn’t be copied
[09:46] gevroe: i’ll give you two links and you can talk about it with the others
[09:46] Ivy Sunkiller: but could be moved
[09:46] gevroe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standstill_operation
[09:46] gevroe: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html
[09:47] gevroe: standstill operation is a surgery where the patient is cooled down to a point is heart stop beating
[09:47] Ivy Sunkiller: hoy hoy Khan
[09:47] Chraeloos: ah ok
[09:47] Chraeloos: Hey Kannea!
[09:47] gevroe: so is apparently dead
[09:47] Chraeloos: oops, sorry
[09:47] Chraeloos: *Khannea
[09:47] gevroe: and then after the srugery is over he is brought back to life
[09:47] gevroe: and at the second link there is adecripiton of a woman who gont trought that process
[09:47] Khannea Suntzu: Heya maryland girl
[09:47] Chraeloos: That’s weird, never heard of that before
[09:47] Chraeloos: Hi Moonlite 🙂
[09:48] gevroe: and she reported after the surgery that she could see herself floating out of her body
[09:48] Ivy Sunkiller: I think we have gone past the point of believing that consciousness or anything is related to the heart? :p
[09:48] Moonlite: Hi Chraeloos
[09:48] gevroe: and she traveled through that tuunell with the ,light in the end
[09:48] gevroe: and she met there her family relatives that died
[09:48] Ivy Sunkiller: out of body experiences are nice and all
[09:48] Ivy Sunkiller: but they are anecdotal evidence at best
[09:48] Chraeloos: agreed, Ivy.
[09:48] Chraeloos: They are interesting
[09:48] gevroe: no in standstill sugery
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: since works with theories that can be tested and repeated
[09:49] Khannea Suntzu: I want nmy out of body expeienced commercial, predictable and accessible my sony playstation.
[09:49] Moonlite: 🙂
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: what about people who go through such surgery and don’t have an out of body experience?
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: and hey there Moonlite
[09:49] Khannea Suntzu: They get cheated and should ask for a refund.
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: and hi there druth
[09:49] Moonlite: Hello Ivy
[09:50] druth Vlodovic: hi
[09:50] Chraeloos: lol guys
[09:50] Ivy Sunkiller: hehehe K
[09:50] Chraeloos: Hi druth!
[09:51] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller just realized she has misspelled science as since
[09:51] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller facedesks
[09:51] Chraeloos: lol, we’ve all done it, dont worry
[09:51] Khannea Suntzu: Give us some ketamine love, I need me a some tunnel of light experience.
[09:52] Chraeloos: do any of you have something you’d like to read before we philosophize?
[09:52] Khannea Suntzu: Sure gime
[09:53] gevroe: i sent you the story Chraeloos
[09:53] Chraeloos: do you want me to read it aloud?
[09:53] gevroe: no its ok …
[09:53] gevroe: its part of the competiton
[09:53] Chraeloos: ok
[09:53] gevroe: so i has to be there i guess until the results will be published
[09:53] Chraeloos: yessir
[09:53] Ivy Sunkiller: oh for the sake of it, we are all text?
[09:54] gevroe: yes sir?
[09:54] gevroe: i’m a sir?
[09:54] gevroe: 🙂
[09:54] Chraeloos: Hi Spring 🙂
[09:54] Ivy Sunkiller: the other option is to be a ma’am
[09:54] druth Vlodovic: hey spring
[09:54] sofa cushion whispers: Hi gevroe Resident! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[09:54] Spring Indiawood: Hi Druth
[09:55] Ivy Sunkiller: hey Spring
[09:55] Chraeloos: …I think we may need a bigger venue shortly lol
[09:55] sofa cushion whispers: Hi Spring Indiawood! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[09:55] Khannea Suntzu: I have a space for youse if you can stomach it. But actually I like these bookclub places a lot myself.
[09:56] Chraeloos: we will hopefully be getting a bigger place soon, we’re looking around.
[09:56] Ivy Sunkiller: I can recreate a meeting spot at my place
[09:56] Chraeloos: But thanks for the offer! I’ll take you up on it if needed
[09:56] Chraeloos: Hm, well thanks guys I’ll let you know if needed, but hopefully not haha we’d like to be self sustained for the most part
[09:57] Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[09:58] druth Vlodovic: is this voice?
[09:58] Chraeloos: Ivy, if you wanted to have your story in a magazine, we’ll be releasing one monthly. You could put say, a chapter per month or so?
[09:58] Chraeloos: If anyone wants to share in voice they can, but we haven’t started yet
[09:58] druth Vlodovic: ok, thanks
[09:58] Chraeloos: Thanks Khan!
[09:59] Ivy Sunkiller: chapter per month sounds obligatory, but sounds like fun 🙂
[09:59] Chraeloos: Hi Dakini
[09:59] D A K I N I: hi
[09:59] Chraeloos: It’d just voluntary right now, but we have a fairly wide base of readers for starting out so its up to you
[09:59] Ivy Sunkiller: okies 🙂
[09:59] Chraeloos: if you do send me an email firstname.lastname@example.org
[09:59] Ivy Sunkiller: okies
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: you are going to edit/have someone to edit it?
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: I always feel like my english sucks
[10:00] Chraeloos: if you’d like yeah, or we can publish it as is
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: I had toy to fix the first chapters
[10:00] Chraeloos: up to you
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: I’d like it fixed, hehe
[10:00] Chraeloos: sure!
[10:01] Chraeloos: Ok we’ll wait just a few more minutes before we start
[10:02] Khannea Suntzu: I spammed some groups for additional gawkers
[10:02] Khannea Suntzu: Dunno.
[10:03] Chraeloos: Thank you!
[10:04] Ivy Sunkiller: while we are waiting, a practical joke from yesterday
[10:04] Ivy Sunkiller: I got asked
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: – is there something on your mind? (context irrelevant)
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: – yes, consciousness
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: in your mind* even
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: 😛
[10:05] ChraeloosChraeloos laughs.
[10:05] Chraeloos: Ok I guess we can get started…
[10:06] Chraeloos: Does anyone have anything to read? We usually start the event by sharing our own or other peoples writing.
[10:06] Chraeloos: If you have something you’d like read for you send it my way and I can read it aloud.
[10:07] Ivy Sunkiller: I’m not the usual dweller (yet) so I got nothing 😛
[10:07] Chraeloos: If not then we can dive into the discussion, as I think it will be a good one 🙂
[10:08] Chraeloos: Understandable Ivy haha, I didn’t even prepare anything for today
[10:08] Chraeloos: going once…
[10:08] D A K I N I: What sort of material do people usually bring?
[10:08] Khannea SuntzuKhannea Suntzu eats candy and can’t say much when devouring candy. Kinda gross actually.
[10:08] Chraeloos: Anything, really
[10:08] Chraeloos: LOL Khannea
[10:08] Chraeloos: fiction, poems
[10:08] Chraeloos: we’ve had some speeches read
[10:09] Chraeloos: Pardon any typos, it’s really cold in here so my hands are not listening to my brain haha
[10:10] Chraeloos: Did you have something you wanted to read Dakini
[10:10] Ivy Sunkiller: whip them into obedience
[10:10] Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[10:10] D A K I N I: sometimes my right and left hemispheres don’t coordinate lol
[10:10] Chraeloos: lol ok
[10:10] Chraeloos: Shall we start the discussion then?
[10:10] gevroe: has anayway read a bokk called
[10:11] gevroe: Gödel, Escher, Bach
[10:11] Chraeloos: nope
[10:11] gevroe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach
[10:11] gevroe: well i bought it recently but just started to read
[10:11] gevroe: it is a very thick and complicated book to read
[10:12] Chraeloos: whats it about?
[10:12] gevroe: i dont know yet
[10:12] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller reads on the wiki
[10:12] Chraeloos: lol
[10:12] ChraeloosChraeloos reads the wiki.
[10:12] Chraeloos: looks interesting, actually
[10:12] gevroe: is starts talking about Bach and how he composed one of the most complicated creation he made
[10:13] gevroe: but the book is about mathmatics and art
[10:13] Chraeloos: cool 🙂
[10:13] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller searches kindle
[10:13] gevroe: i finishde reading not lately the book of sir Ken Robinson
[10:14] Chraeloos: Alright, so I’ll start with the intro notes. I’d appreciate it if you held your comment or questions until after as I probably wont see them.
[10:14] gevroe: ok
[10:14] gevroe: 🙂
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: Topic: Consciousness and Memory Transfer
[10:14] Ivy Sunkiller: not on kindle 😦
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: Cases have been known where children remember exact details from events they shouldn’t know anything about.
[10:14] Ivy Sunkiller: there are other books of the author though
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: For instance, there was the boy who remembers WWII details as if he was a pilot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1209795/Reincarnated-Our-son-World-War-II-pilot-come-life.html
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: More examples of children remembering “past lives” here: http://nell-rose.hubpages.com/hub/Past-Lives-The-True-Story-of-The-Children-Who-Have-Lived-Before
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: It appears as though these children are aware of events, details, etc. that they shouldn’t know anything about. Believing that someone can be reincarnated is difficult for scientists to believe or prove.
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: To think that someones spirit, or consciousness, is just floating around in our world is unprovable at this point in our technology, and highly speculative.
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: Some people who have organ transplants claim to get the memories, emotions, etc. of the person who had the organ before them. They call it “memory transference”. http://www.namahjournal.com/doc/Actual/Memory-transference-in-organ-transplant-recipients-vol
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: “…[I]t is pertinent to note that apart from miscellaneous information such as gender, age and cause of death, profiles of organ donors are traditionally concealed from their recipients for psychological reasons.”
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: “Neuropeptide theory
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: Pharmacologist Candace Pert proposed that neuropeptides which are stored in every cell act as a sort of biochemical correlate of emotion. It was previously thought that emotions resided in the limbic system in the brain.
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: According to Pert, neuropeptides are protein-like messenger molecules released by the brain neurons which flow through the body communicating among the
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: nervous, immune, endocrine, muscle, and skeletal systems via blood, interstitial fluids and the central nervous system, which are all body fluids.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: At present, about 100 different peptides are known to be released by various populations of neurons in the mammalian brain.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Neuropeptides have also been found in the heart, which could explain some forms of cellular memories reported by heart transplant recipients (10).”
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Here I bring you to a slightly different topic, quantum consciousness. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff collaborated on a theory they call the “OR model of consciousness”. (objective reduction) http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/conscio
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: “Within the OR scheme, we consider that consciousness occurs if an appropriately organized system is able to develop and maintain quantum coherent superposition until a specific “objective” criterion (a threshold related to quantum gravity) is reached; th
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Cellular Automata
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: You know what a checkerboard looks like? A bunch of black and white squares? Well, Conway is a mathematician that basically figured out a formula stating that if a white cell has eight cells around it, then if it is given a rule saying that 3 of those cel
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: If every cell was given that rule, it would seem as though patterns were moving across the board as they changed. They’d never settle and become still. Basically this is applied to cells, mostly seen in computer memory.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: However it is found in biological cells as well; like in snails shells the patterns are due to this cellular automata. So, these “rules” have also been found in neural tissue. Penrose and Hameroff believe that this is the cause of consciousness, or self-a
[10:17] Chraeloos: wareness
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: In that case, if these cells are moving and changing all the time, at speeds completely undefinable, then they would take time to slow down and finally stop, causing consciousness to end.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Meaning, after death, humans are still conscious. Especially since it takes a little while for the actual cells to die, and the DNA never does. It could be minutes, or hours for all we know, before consciousness stops.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Oxygen flow is what causes brain activity and from there every other kind of process in our bodies. But even after oxygen stops flowing, it takes a little while (not sure exactly how long, varies from person to person as well) for everything to suffocate.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: So, these cells could continue going for a very long time before they finally die, if they do.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: However, Hameroff, being an anesthesiologist, has “shown that when people are put under for surgery their tubulin dimers fall into a neutral state — instead of being black or white, they all sort of become gray.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: When they do that, consciousness goes off; when they start behaving as cellular automata again, consciousness comes back on.”
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: Memory Transference
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: For the past decade, in experiments with mice, rats and even lowly flatworms, a number of researchers have claimed success in transferring learning or memory between organisms, usually by feeding or injecting one animal with the brain extract from another
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: Those claims have never been completely accepted, however, because other scientists were not always able to duplicate the experiments, and no one could identify the exact nature of the so-called “memory molecules” necessary for such a transfer.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,876854,00.html#ixzz1j04RFwr3
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: They are admitting that there would need to be some sort of physical form that the memories would need to exist in. They have not yet identified these, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: What if memory could be transferred between organisms? When people die, if their bodies are left to disintegrate, they break down and get absorbed into the soil.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: The plants grow from the soil, and are eaten by the animals (which could be human), and the humans eat the animals.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: From this one can assume that the cells of the deceased could be absorbed into the bodies of the living.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: If memory is stored in active cells or neuropeptides within the cells, they could be stored long enough, based on the cellular automata theory, to be passed on to the other human being.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: This could explain why humans have the ability to learn from such a young age. It could explain why we seem to have a general set of knowledge from the time we are babies. How we know how to grow, talk, acknowledge objects, etc.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: It could even describe why these children from all over the world have vivid memories of things they should know nothing about.
[10:20] Chraeloos Resident: What do you think? I open the floor.
[10:20] Chraeloos Resident: [ you have reached the end of the current notecard – resetting to first line… ]
[10:20] D A K I N I: you covered a lot of ground here
[10:20] Ivy Sunkiller: quite a lot, happily read all that before 🙂
[10:20] Khannea Suntzu: I am pretty cautious with all this, for personal reasons. Why? Because this is very difficult to me. All this is all arguments of storing the essential constituents of me, the actual me, as persistent and retrievable components. I have become cautious of this as I regard this as wishful thinking. I hate death. I really hate death. But what I hate more is anything condoning, glorifying or making death “a sentiental myth”. I can’; bear death but I also can’t bear the glamorization of death.
[10:20] Chraeloos: Yes, sorry. There’s a lot to cover
[10:21] D A K I N I: i for one believe in past lives or some may say parellel lives…
[10:21] Chraeloos: Khannea, this isn’t stating that you’d be aware of “moving on” necessarily.
[10:21] D A K I N I: i have experienced past life regression myself but even more interesting was the life between life experience
[10:21] Ivy Sunkiller: I think there are really two problems to tackle
[10:21] Chraeloos: Oh really Dakini? That’s fascinating.
[10:21] D A K I N I: but if you would rather concentrate on the current one
[10:22] D A K I N I: i can give one minor example of something that happened
[10:22] Ivy Sunkiller: there is a huge difference between memory presisting after death, and consciousness doing so
[10:22] Chraeloos: Hi Farv, you just missed the intro, pick up a copy of the notes on the stage if you’dl ike
[10:22] D A K I N I: as a child i learned to crochet
[10:22] Ivy Sunkiller: hey hey Farv
[10:22] D A K I N I: many years later
[10:22] D A K I N I: i couldn’t remember how to do it
[10:22] D A K I N I: but wanted to make a friend a gift for her new baby
[10:22] D A K I N I: i picked up the hook and thread
[10:22] D A K I N I: and my hands remembered what my memory didn’t remember
[10:23] D A K I N I: i made that gift
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: aka muscle memory
[10:23] D A K I N I: yes
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: I get that often with keybinds, haha
[10:23] Chraeloos: True Ivy, about the memory vs. consciousness
[10:23] D A K I N I: that may be something different though
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: I couldn’t recall what the keybinds to belnder are
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: but when I reinstalled it and started using it
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: it all came back
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: it’s more likely that the memory is still there in the brain
[10:24] gevroe: so maybe there is a connectoini between memory and movement
[10:24] Chraeloos: Same with piano and flute playing for me
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: it’s that you can’t reach it with just thinking
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: yes yes
[10:24] D A K I N I: so from what you read… it seems apparent each of us have memories stored in cells other than what we can recall in memory
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Violet
[10:25] Chraeloos: Hi Violet 🙂 Intro notes are on the stage
[10:25] Violet: Hi Ivy, everyone 🙂
[10:25] Ivy Sunkiller: I think we have memories stored in synapses rather than cells, but I could be wrong 🙂
[10:25] D A K I N I: that would be one level referred to
[10:25] Chraeloos: or neuropeptides
[10:25] D A K I N I: well.. my hands knew how to complete the tasks
[10:26] gevroe: I saw once a tv show that talked about the future that we would be able to copy brains connections
[10:26] D A K I N I: my mind was very suprised
[10:26] Chraeloos: Dakini, with regards to different memories stored in cells not necessarily. Is it maybe that our brains just can’t access everything? The connection is there just not available?
[10:26] D A K I N I: i don’t know
[10:26] gevroe: and so cause einstein brain is in a jar …they would be able to copy is personality to a computer and we can talk again with einstien
[10:26] Ivy Sunkiller: might be neuropeptides, we used to believe that the functions of DNA were held by proteins since they seem to be much more complex
[10:26] Khannea Suntzu: I am in denial. It’s like I do not want to affirm this, it opens such a can of worms for me.
[10:27] D A K I N I: not an expert in such things.. but i find personal experience to be my guidpost
[10:27] Chraeloos: For everyone, Khannea haha
[10:27] D A K I N I: so did the concept of space travel once upon a time
[10:27] Chraeloos: I read about that Ivy, just the other day haha
[10:27] D A K I N I: or even flying
[10:27] Ivy Sunkiller: there was a TED talk about consciousness recently
[10:28] Chraeloos: Antonio Damasio?
[10:28] D A K I N I: it seems vital that we expand our minds in order to grow
[10:28] Khannea Suntzu: Trust me not being able to fly really sucks when no one can do it. Then when someone can and shows other people how to make it reproducible makes it suck considerably less.
[10:28] D A K I N I: we can’t know the edges of our potential if we don’t expand
[10:28] Ivy Sunkiller: sorry, I don’t have memory for names, checking facts now 🙂
[10:29] Chraeloos: no problem
[10:29] Khannea Suntzu: I hate limits.
[10:29] druth Vlodovic: actually I think that consciousness is only one function of our minds, so not being able to recall something doesn’t mean it isn’t there, just that that function isn’t compatible with it
[10:29] Ivy Sunkiller: yus, that’s the one Chraeloos
[10:29] Chraeloos: haha Khannea, someone push you off a cliff, then again with a parachute?
[10:29] Khannea Suntzu: Parachutes were invented after flight.
[10:29] Chraeloos: I know, thats what I mean haha
[10:30] Chraeloos: Good talk, Ivy, his book is just as good
[10:30] Farv Hallison: Our brains would have to be very much larger to hold all the memories that would allow us to recognize things in a higher dimensioanl space.
[10:30] Khannea Suntzu: In my dreams I can fly. When I do I feel sad I can’t in real life.
[10:30] Khannea Suntzu: In my dreams I meet up with a dead friend. Waking up is something tnat is about as unbearable as having a nail hammered in my hand/.
[10:31] Chraeloos: Not necessarily larger, Farv.
[10:31] Chraeloos: Just more capable?
[10:31] Chraeloos: Understandable Khannea
[10:31] gevroe: do you think that just as in computer world we human also connect to a cloud memory?
[10:31] Ivy Sunkiller: or quantum, then they can hold pretty much anything 🙂
[10:31] D A K I N I: itsn’t it about nural pathways rather than size?
[10:32] gevroe: in cloud memory we can store memories instead in our minds
[10:32] Chraeloos: yes Dakini, I think so
[10:32] Chraeloos: How would someone “tap in” to this cloud memory, gevroe?
[10:32] Violet: Hi Philippe
[10:32] Chraeloos: Hello Philippe
[10:32] Ivy Sunkiller: males have bigger brains than woman, but not more complex when it comes to number of neurons and synapses, females are more “packed” 🙂
[10:32] Ivy Sunkiller: hello Philippe
[10:33] Farv Hallison: hehe, more staked, too.
[10:33] Chraeloos: Good to know, Ivy 😉
[10:33] Farv Hallison: stacked.
[10:33] D A K I N I: some men are brilliant.. more so than women
[10:33] D A K I N I: we can’t paint everyone with the same brush
[10:33] Chraeloos: of course Dakini
[10:33] Ivy Sunkiller: let’s not go to that route Dakini, just wanted to point out that the size doesn’t matter (pun intended)
[10:33] D A K I N I: i think its individual
[10:33] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles.
[10:34] D A K I N I: 🙂
[10:34] gevroe: well i understood that Carl Jung as opposed to Sigmund Freud talked abot collective uncounciousness
[10:34] Chraeloos: Yes he did
[10:34] gevroe: so it is a kind of cloud memory
[10:34] gevroe: 🙂
[10:34] Ivy Sunkiller: collective UNconsciousness?
[10:34] gevroe: i saw a tv show about twins
[10:34] Ivy Sunkiller: what would that be/
[10:34] Ivy Sunkiller: ?*
[10:35] Chraeloos: Not exactly, gevroe. It’s involuntary according to Jung
[10:35] gevroe: and those twins could connect and feel each other even if they werent at the same place
[10:35] Farv Hallison: We revel in the communication we have through messsages in spacetime.
[10:35] Chraeloos: Essentially what the discussion is about, Ivy haha.
[10:35] gevroe: ok
[10:35] Ivy Sunkiller: okay!
[10:35] Chraeloos: Many twins can do that, it’s fascinating
[10:35] Violet: Jung’s collective unconscious could just as well be instinctual; all the stuff that’s “hard wired” into the human experience
[10:35] Chraeloos: What do you think, is collective unconscious possible?
[10:35] D A K I N I: i read something once.. they did an experiment
[10:36] gevroe: so that is a way to claim that there is some sort of another way to communicate
[10:36] Chraeloos: Agreed Violet
[10:36] gevroe: and so why not to assume that we might communicate with a cyber space of thoughts throuh our mins
[10:36] gevroe: minds
[10:36] gevroe: wihtout noticing it
[10:36] gevroe: that is how we dream also
[10:36] Chraeloos: how do you prove that, gevroe?
[10:36] Ivy Sunkiller: if (and that’s a big IF) our brains are indeed quantum machines, then twins feelings could be easily explained with quantum entanglement
[10:37] D A K I N I: where they took a drop of blood and divided it in 2.. one they kept in the research lab.. the other half they took somewhere else. they they exposed the one half to electrodes and at thet same moment the slide with the other half of the drop of blood reacted the same as the one they kept in the original lab
[10:37] Chraeloos: oooh quantum entanglement. Care to explain Ivy?
[10:37] gevroe: well i can say about my mother that dreamed of a family member that was injured in war
[10:37] gevroe: and she didnt know that it actually happened
[10:37] Ivy Sunkiller: yus, quantum entanglement is a phenomena where two particles can resonate with one another
[10:38] Ivy Sunkiller: regardless of distance
[10:38] gevroe: and the day later she was informed that what happened in the dream actually took place
[10:38] Farv Hallison: we are fixated on communicating with each other through spacetime because that is how we have been taught to appreciate the world.
[10:38] Ivy Sunkiller: it was recently done with milimeter scale diamonds in normal room environment, quite amazing
[10:38] Chraeloos: They called it the EPR paradox, freaked Einstein right out
[10:38] Chraeloos: Neat gevroe
[10:38] Ivy Sunkiller: yeah, Einstein had a nice name for it
[10:39] gevroe: there are many reports like that
[10:39] Ivy Sunkiller: “odd activity on distance” or something along those lines
[10:39] Chraeloos: “spooky”
[10:39] Chraeloos: XD
[10:39] Violet: Spooky action 🙂
[10:39] Ivy Sunkiller: that! 🙂
[10:39] Chraeloos: Good point Farv, is it habit?
[10:39] Chraeloos: They did create it? I didn’t know that
[10:39] Chraeloos: er, not create it, you know what I mean
[10:40] Chraeloos: Are our brains stuck in the habit of how we use them?
[10:40] Ivy Sunkiller: we evolved as a space-time biological machines, so it’s only natural we think and communicate in those terms
[10:40] Khannea Suntzu: I hear all these things and what can I say – anecdotes? Pattern recognition run amok? Wishful thinking? Overly imaginative? Fringe science? Bunk? How can I make such discrediting claims… but worse… how can I NOT do so?
[10:40] D A K I N I: is it really possible we are limited by our beliefs
[10:40] gevroe: there is a story in the bible
[10:40] Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: well we learn by practice after all, don’t we?
[10:41] Chraeloos: very true
[10:41] Chraeloos: Khannea, if you were asked to prove that our consciousness lived on after death, how would you do it?
[10:41] gevroe: when two of the israelites had the ability of Moses as a prophets
[10:41] Violet: “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.”
[10:41] Chraeloos: Or that our memories were “transferrable”
[10:42] Chraeloos: ?
[10:42] gevroe: and Joshua was worried about that
[10:42] gevroe: but Moses said to him that he wish all could havfe that ability
[10:42] gevroe: so there is some ability here
[10:42] Chraeloos: Is that proof, gevroe?
[10:42] gevroe: that only some people poses
[10:43] gevroe: i dont know if it is a proof
[10:43] Ivy Sunkiller: the reason why I’m generally not fascinated about having any sort of consciousness after death is that consciousness without memory would lack identity (duh Ghost in the Shell again)
[10:43] gevroe: all we discuss in this cases are case studies
[10:43] Chraeloos: Right Ivy
[10:43] gevroe: no proofs
[10:43] Chraeloos: why not try, gevroe?
[10:43] gevroe: what about Edgar Cayce
[10:44] Chraeloos: But if memory was storied in cells, on an “individual” type basis, so say one memory per cell, it could explain a lot
[10:44] Chraeloos: It’s as if pieces of us were out there always?
[10:44] Chraeloos: I was waiting for him to come up haha
[10:44] Ivy Sunkiller: it could, but I have very serious doubts about that 🙂
[10:44] Chraeloos: agreed, but why not?
[10:44] gevroe: the first surgery that made use of a nail to attach bones was done after he got a message about it
[10:44] Ivy Sunkiller: any evidence to back it up seems to be anecdotal
[10:44] Chraeloos: true, but thats how new ideas are born, is it not?
[10:45] gevroe: even thomas edisson consulted him
[10:45] gevroe: yes,.. from where new ideas come from?
[10:45] gevroe: 🙂
[10:45] gevroe: if you all know the song of the beatles “across the universe”
[10:45] D A K I N I: divine inspiration is what i call it
[10:45] gevroe: well that song was composed when john lenon woke up in the middle of night
[10:45] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller tries to resist making HTW puns
[10:46] gevroe: with the song in his mind ..so he wrote it together with the tune
[10:46] gevroe: and went to sleep
[10:46] gevroe: so?
[10:46] Violet: haha
[10:46] Ivy Sunkiller: I knew Violet would get that one, hehe
[10:46] Violet: Yeah 🙂
[10:46] Chraeloos: So, basically, we’re all frightened by the thought of any sort of life, consciousness, memory transference, after death?
[10:47] Ivy Sunkiller: ideas are a result of the thinking process
[10:47] D A K I N I: i’m not
[10:47] Ivy Sunkiller: the problem is
[10:47] Chraeloos: Each of these things are very different, though. They imply very different things
[10:47] Ivy Sunkiller: we don’t really know what thinking *is*
[10:47] Chraeloos: BINGO
[10:47] gevroe: right
[10:47] gevroe: yesterday i saw a tv show about a DID girl
[10:47] Violet: I’m not; I have no idea what to expect, at death
[10:47] gevroe: she has 30 personalities in one person
[10:47] Chraeloos: Of course, none of us do, do we?
[10:47] D A K I N I: i experienced a past life death
[10:48] Chraeloos: How do you know each death with be the same, Dakini?
[10:48] gevroe: Dissociative identity disorder
[10:48] D A K I N I: and was freed at death into something so beautiful
[10:48] D A K I N I: i no longer fear death
[10:48] Ivy Sunkiller: if you have experienced death, shouldn’t you be, well, dead? 🙂
[10:48] D A K I N I: i fear living in pain
[10:48] Chraeloos: as we all do
[10:48] D A K I N I: it was a past life regression
[10:48] D A K I N I: i’m reincarnated lol
[10:49] Ivy Sunkiller: oooookay
[10:49] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller slides her beanbag chair to the left
[10:49] gevroe: i once paid 10$ to a site of an astrololical informationi
[10:49] D A K I N I: aaaahhahaha
[10:49] Chraeloos: Hey play nice
[10:49] gevroe: and they told me that i made all the reincarnation i need
[10:49] gevroe: and now i’m in the last one
[10:49] Ivy Sunkiller: sorry 🙂
[10:49] D A K I N I: better move to the other side of the room
[10:49] D A K I N I: there’s lots more
[10:49] Chraeloos: lol
[10:49] D A K I N I: and i don’t care if i scare anyone
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: oh it takes more to scare me
[10:50] D A K I N I: i love pushing the envelope
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: it’s interesting
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: but it’s hardly useful
[10:50] D A K I N I: i disagree
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: again, anecdotal evidence 🙂
[10:50] D A K I N I: i think challenging limitations is very useful
[10:51] Ivy Sunkiller: challenging is nice, but as evidence it’s not useful 🙂
[10:51] Chraeloos: So, do you think memories can be transferred, in any means, after death?
[10:51] Ivy Sunkiller: well, not for us who have no such experience (or don’t claim to have one)
[10:51] Violet: I think it’s useful to explore states of consciousness…..but objectivity is impossible, so it needs a different approach
[10:51] D A K I N I: so if someone wrote a book on it.. called it fact you would then believe it?
[10:51] gevroe: no
[10:52] gevroe: you can say .. it is interestinig
[10:52] gevroe: just as sightings of UFO’s
[10:52] Chraeloos: What kind of approach Violet?
[10:52] Ivy Sunkiller: it would be an interesting book on anecdotal evidence 🙂
[10:52] gevroe: has anyone once saw a UFO?
[10:52] Violet: That’s something I’ve tried sussing out for years, Chraeloos 🙂
[10:52] Chraeloos: I’m curious to know how we could prove it one way or another.
[10:52] Chraeloos: Indeed Violet.
[10:53] Chraeloos: I wonder if our minds just can’t grasp it at this point
[10:53] Chraeloos: I find it interesting that none of us have been able to supply anything other than anecdotal evidence.
[10:53] Ivy Sunkiller: I think they can’t yet
[10:53] gevroe: there is one scientific clue anyway
[10:53] Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy
[10:53] Ivy Sunkiller: but we are getting closer
[10:53] Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[10:53] gevroe: and it is water crystals
[10:53] Chraeloos: hopefully, Ivy haha
[10:54] D A K I N I: well what about the children who know things they can’t know
[10:54] D A K I N I: details
[10:54] gevroe: there is a japanes art that took pictures of water crystals that were influenced by thoughts
[10:54] D A K I N I: that have been recorded
[10:54] D A K I N I: Dr Emoto
[10:54] Ivy Sunkiller: what about people that talk to god, or people who have been miraculously cured, or….
[10:54] gevroe: http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/
[10:54] Violet: I think consciousness is pretty much an irreducible mystery; we can learn more about how our brains and senses function, but then the thing that’s learning is still so fundamental to the concept of existence that all we can really do for sure is gawk
[10:54] gevroe: that is the linke
[10:55] gevroe: that is a link
[10:55] D A K I N I: he proves that water is conscious
[10:55] Chraeloos: …at this point in time, Violet
[10:56] gevroe: i think that he proves that a thoughts are in a dimensioni that we yet cant prove or see
[10:56] Chraeloos: Ah, time, I degress. Always back to linear or not.
[10:56] Chraeloos: Prove is a strong word
[10:56] D A K I N I: 🙂
[10:56] Chraeloos: Has anyone been able to replicate the experiment?
[10:56] Ivy Sunkiller: hardly anything is ever proved
[10:56] Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy
[10:56] Ivy Sunkiller: and if it’s proved, it’s using some axioms
[10:57] gevroe: our thoughts can take place out of our minds
[10:57] ChraeloosChraeloos raises an eyebrow.
[10:57] Chraeloos: Interesting
[10:57] Violet: I think as long as there are things with awareness, there will be that mystery though; awareness and existence are pretty tangled up
[10:57] Chraeloos: agreed
[10:58] gevroe: and maybe our mental health demand that we should stick with reality as we understand it
[10:58] gevroe: at least when it comes with meeeting with psychiatrists
[10:58] Chraeloos: Alright, well the hours up so if you need to leave feel free
[10:58] gevroe: 🙂
[10:58] Ivy Sunkiller: I like the other approach to understanding consciousness, one thing is trying to learn how it works (mostly by reverse engineering the brain, so to speak, and we are getting better at that!)
[10:58] Ivy Sunkiller: the other is trying to actually create consciousness
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: and the fun thing is, we don’t have to know how consciousness works, or what it is even, to make it
[10:59] Violet: Hi Karlingo
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: hello Karlingo
[10:59] gevroe: Hi
[10:59] D A K I N I: its been interesting
[10:59] Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy, but of course its all based on things we need to believe we experienced
[10:59] Karlingo Lorefield: PLEASE tell me i just didnt land on a person?????
[10:59] Chraeloos: Hi Karl
[10:59] D A K I N I: maybe i’ll stop by another time
[10:59] Karlingo Lorefield: Hi there 🙂
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: nope, just carpet
[10:59] Violet: You’re good, Karlingo
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: I think
[10:59] Chraeloos: lol Karl, you’re safe
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: :p
[10:59] Karlingo Lorefield: phew
[10:59] Violet: Hi Rhi
[10:59] Chraeloos: Hey Rhia!
[11:00] Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Rhi
[11:00] Chraeloos: Hopefully Dakini 🙂
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: hI cHRAEe!
[11:00] Spring Indiawood: sorry I have to go
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: hI vI; HI iVY
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: sORRY i’M late.
[11:00] Chraeloos: No problem
[11:00] Ivy Sunkiller: left to A on keyboard Rhi 🙂
[11:00] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
Thanks for coming!